CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

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Wicky
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mo

Post by Wicky » Tue May 24, 2016 8:56 am

Stepkevh wrote:There's one thing i dont understand...
I was reading up on Kriegers website last night that for setting MCCT's tension, you turn them by hand until all slack in the chain is gone and then lock it off.
While with this stopper mod, we should have slack.
Is this just because we still use the original CCT's and they rod must be able to move ?
Mark Krieger's Firestorm instructions are based on manual tensioner installation procedure written here in the Workshop Knowledgebase, and cleary states finger tight then back it out 1/8 turn before locking it up. Not sure how you missed this.

http://www.clems-garage.com/CCT/VTR1000 ... ctions.htm
13) Then continue turning while still finger tightening the cam chain tensioner to make sure all play is out, then back the thru bolt 1/8 turn and tighten lock nut. (static setting)
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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sirch345
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mo

Post by sirch345 » Tue May 24, 2016 10:37 am

Cheers Wicky, you saved me a job :thumbup:

The majority of Krieger's instructions are taken from what I put together and wrote here on this forum on "How to remove and refit CCT's on the Firestorm", he's just added a bit more to cover manual CCT's:-
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8326

Chris.
A closed mouth gathers no foot. :thumbup:

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Stepkevh
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mo

Post by Stepkevh » Tue May 24, 2016 3:54 pm

Wicky wrote: Mark Krieger's Firestorm instructions are based on manual tensioner installation procedure written here in the Workshop Knowledgebase, and cleary states finger tight then back it out 1/8 turn before locking it up. Not sure how you missed this.

http://www.clems-garage.com/CCT/VTR1000 ... ctions.htm
13) Then continue turning while still finger tightening the cam chain tensioner to make sure all play is out, then back the thru bolt 1/8 turn and tighten lock nut. (static setting)
Ow my... i feel so embarassed :oops:
How did i look over that 8O

But still... 1/8 turn on a metric bolt isn't the same distance as 1/2 turn on the locking key from the cct.
So you still have less "slack" with mcct's then with standard cct's and stopper mod.
Correct me if i'm wrong offcourse :)
~ Imagination is only limited by your mind ~

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Wicky
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mo

Post by Wicky » Tue May 24, 2016 4:27 pm

Manual tensioners are fixed so they need to achieve an adequate tension that isn't too tight (squeal) or too loose (rattle), while OEM tensioners are dynamic as the spring and ratcheting allows a spread of movement to keep itself tensioned hence auto-tensioner (through heat cycling, cam chain chain stretch, throttling on-off). While the addition of the stopper mod to Honda OEM tensioners provides a failsafe in the event of the the spring breaking, it will back out and be loose (and rattle) but will not allow the tensioner to fully retract, therby keeping the cam chain from getting too loose to jump the cam sprockets.

I recommend you have a peek at this thread

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=38226&start=0

and have a read of Bleh's Research > memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=12571


Abstract
Looking at an automatic cam chain tensioner and its most likely cause of failure, the torsional spring, this paper addresses the issue of how best to avoid catastrophic valvetrain failure if a spring was to fail during operation.
The result of a simplistic modification to an already existing part could be classed as cost effective and possibly even desirable by the many enthusiasts, and potential customers, in the market for an ever reliable Honda motorcycle today.
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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Stepkevh
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mo

Post by Stepkevh » Tue May 24, 2016 5:39 pm

Now that was an interesting read :thumbup:
~ Imagination is only limited by your mind ~

Troutman
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mo

Post by Troutman » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:30 am

and have a read of Bleh's Research > memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=12571



This makes the most sense to me, it keeps the original CCT's cushioning properties which in my mind is there for a good reason or Honda and all other engine manufacturers would have just fitted a solid bolt! but it prevents valve train failure when/if the spring fails.
I think I would buy 2 new CCT's (with new springs)from Honda and do the "stopper mod". Why Honda and the rest don't extend the bung to be failsafe I have no idea.

24/8..would you believe it! Riding home tonight from Carlisle to Selkirk up the A7 after a rather fast burst on a very long wide straight I hear a very noisy rattle coming from what sounds like the front. CCT has gone!
Managed to slow down and ride it for about 200yds to a safe place to pull in and sort out getting recovered. I was going to do the stopper mod as above very soon (this weekend) so it just shows!

Peeb
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by Peeb » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:03 am

OK, I am a New VTR owner from Seattle. It's a 17,000 mile Red 1998 in decent but ignored condition. I've just completed the stopper mod on the front cylinder. The existing stock CCTs have a red dot (that mean anything?). I'm doing other operations at the same time so Tank, Carbs, and both valve covers are off. The Access plates on left side for crank and reference marks are removed. Instead the special tool to secure the CCT we used a screw driver and tape. DON'T follow my path until some senior members have a look at this. I had trouble following the drawings but understood the objective and made this up.

Here is the screwdriver and tape trick for holding the length during removal. 1/2 turn took away tension. This may not work on the rear CCT because oil drips out:
screwdriver trick.jpg
screwdriver trick.jpg (71.38 KiB) Viewed 3560 times
Here is the unit as removed with screwdriver taped to hold position. The measurement shown, FOR YOUR BIKE is vital.
CCT Removed.jpg
CCT Removed.jpg (72.96 KiB) Viewed 3560 times
Here is how I did this. Comments welcome. I have not yet re installed. Yes, I will turn the engine by hand and check tension and also make sure I can get a 1/2 turn back for safety of chain. When Assembling the final time after measurments are verified, engage the spring before winding. This is a bit like a pull cord in a lawnmower. Make sure the assembled unit springs the tensioner out
CCT detail.jpg
CCT detail.jpg (147.49 KiB) Viewed 3560 times
Desired length for my bike
DesiredLength.jpg
DesiredLength.jpg (108.89 KiB) Viewed 3560 times
Retracted "Spring Broken Safety Length"
retracted.jpg
retracted.jpg (99.92 KiB) Viewed 3560 times
Moderator please check. Is there a staging area for new ideas or new statements of existing procedures?

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sirch345
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by sirch345 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:45 am

First of all welcome to the forum :thumbup:

Personally I would rather a locking key (such a title for a piece of tin plate 1mm thick :lol: ) was used, as IMHO your screwdriver could turn without you realising it with only sticky tape holding the tension from the spring, that would mean your measurements would be out. I know with you checking your measurements with the ruler that would show up, but if it is out you will have to refit the CCT and start all over again.

Image

If I have got this right, you have fully stripped the CCT for access of fitting the spacer rod (in your case a threaded bar). The reason I suggest you knock out the plunger pin (roll pin) instead allowing you to remove the plunger head to fit the spacer rod, that leaves the spring set at the correct tension as set at manufacturing, note the spring is pre-set on assembly. The problem you have now is knowing how much tension is needed to be put on the spring when you reassemble the CCT workings, so the correct tension is applied to the cam chain.

Image
Moderator please check. Is there a staging area for new ideas or new statements of existing procedures?
We do not have a separate staging area for new ideas as of yet,

Chris.
A closed mouth gathers no foot. :thumbup:

tony.mon
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by tony.mon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:06 pm

A check would be how long a new section you needed- it's usually around 11-12mm.

Good write-up, but it's hard to read the red writing!


And welcome, thanks for joining in.
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Peeb
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by Peeb » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:29 pm

OK riders, I see the issue with the spring being removed while adding the stopper stock. I did count 5 or 6 turns The reason I took everything apart was a concern the screwdriver duct tape would jump off when I was not watching. I also wanted to see if the spring was in good condition. With the cam covers removed I have a good feel for the chain tension before and after the mod and it's very close. While I am not a trained mechanic, I must say, the entire CCT setup seems very dodgy. The spring is thin and there is not any isolation rubber (too hot?) or gentle ramp where the spring meets the tensioner screw or where the spring meets the tensioner body. The concequence of a skipped chain and a miss timed valve train in an interference engine is catastrophic. Be careful out there! Riding Season in Seattle is almost upon us!

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sirch345
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by sirch345 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:02 pm

It sounds like you are pretty much up on the CCT spring tension so that is good, I hope all goes well,

Chris.
A closed mouth gathers no foot. :thumbup:

VTR down under
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by VTR down under » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:30 am

Thanks for the great thread everyone. I have a bit of a chain sound on my bike, not loud, generally on light power or off power. I figured I would start with the CCTs and do the stopper mod, since nearly free is my ideal price point right now. The stopper for the rear I measured as 10.2 mm and the front 8.1 mm. Bike is late 2006 build, almost 22k km. The rear was a bit sticky to get it turning at first (it didn't help that I tried to turn it the wrong direction). I actually loosened the hex screws a bit so it would move, then I tightened it back up and did the turn and lock. The engine turned freely after the CCTs were back in and everything seemed pretty good. Getting the airbox back on was a huge pain, especially the hose near the front :evil: I started and let it idle for a minutes, sounded fine. Haven't been able to test ride, as it has been raining heaps here (found a couple new leaks in the roof, glad I rent :D ). Next job, carb sync. Just wish I would have had the barb when everything was apart, looks like a b8stard to get in.
2006 VTR 1000, all stock
1981 CX500, in 1000 pieces
1978 Yamaha XS650, on another continent waiting for me

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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by sirch345 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:55 pm

VTR down under wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:30 am
Thanks for the great thread everyone. I have a bit of a chain sound on my bike, not loud, generally on light power or off power. I figured I would start with the CCTs and do the stopper mod, since nearly free is my ideal price point right now. The stopper for the rear I measured as 10.2 mm and the front 8.1 mm. Bike is late 2006 build, almost 22k km. The rear was a bit sticky to get it turning at first (it didn't help that I tried to turn it the wrong direction). I actually loosened the hex screws a bit so it would move, then I tightened it back up and did the turn and lock. The engine turned freely after the CCTs were back in and everything seemed pretty good. Getting the airbox back on was a huge pain, especially the hose near the front :evil: I started and let it idle for a minutes, sounded fine. Haven't been able to test ride, as it has been raining heaps here (found a couple new leaks in the roof, glad I rent :D ). Next job, carb sync. Just wish I would have had the barb when everything was apart, looks like a b8stard to get in.
Good to know this thread was helpful :thumbup:

Yes getting to that front inlet manifold to fit the take-off isn't the easiest when the bike is all back together you're right. It can be done as I have done it, if I remember I used a short length of hose, placed the brass adapter in the end of it and got it started by turning the hose. Mine came with on "O ring" on it which I removed, I used some thread lock on the threads. If your's is brass don't over tighten it, it will shear off very easily.

Good luck fitting it, if you have small hands (unlike me) the job will be slightly easier,

Chris.
A closed mouth gathers no foot. :thumbup:

VTR down under
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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by VTR down under » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:33 pm

Thanks for the tip, I will try the hose trick.
2006 VTR 1000, all stock
1981 CX500, in 1000 pieces
1978 Yamaha XS650, on another continent waiting for me

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Re: CCT (Cam Chain Tensioner) Fail Safe Mod. (aka Stopper Mod)

Post by sirch345 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:29 am

A notice to Stopper Mod users.

Due to an Odd Noise from my Storm that could only be heard on the overrun (as in when the engine is holding the bike back) as you're slowing down, and then could only be heard when you were going slow enough in the lower gears. The wind must have take the sound away from my ears when travelling quicker, although wearing ear plugs and a crash helmet must have made it more difficult to hear I'm sure.

To hopefully stop a lot of searching and head scratching for others in the future, wondering what on earth this sound could be should your bike start making this noise.
It was down to the Stopper Mod, although one could say that was a good thing as it was giving notification of a standard CCT no longer operating as it should have been.

The sound can be heard here:- https://clyp.it/ndfcwovx

If you want to read more about my Odd Noise you can read about it here:- https://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopi ... =7&t=41342

And if you only want to go to the post I made of what was happening here's that link:- https://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopi ... 30#p451275

Chris.
A closed mouth gathers no foot. :thumbup:

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