Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Just post charts and set up details.
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VTRDark
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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by VTRDark » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:26 pm

Front needle on the top, rear one slot down
The top being the blunt yes/no. I just want it clarified as this often gets mixed up.

I'm also working on the pilot circuit. I have nasty feeling I am going to get caught between 50's and and 48s. 48's = too many turns out on the fuel screws and 50s = not enough. I had this issue once before. Mmmm which to choose or should that be rich to loose :lol:
Another thought, what ECU are you running?

If it is the stock one, you might not have enough advance through that part of the rev range.
While an advancer might help, if running the stock ECU, it would hurt you are the revs climb as you already have a bit too much advance for a STG1 engine up there :wink:
+1 on this. You may even benefit from a retarder. Tread carefully when you go high comp, especially combined with cams. There's less room for error. Are you getting the Ignetec ignition?

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Stephan
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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:55 am

8541Hawk wrote:4K-5K is on the needles but the pilot circuit still has a lot of affect on that range. :thumbup:

You could try opening the pilots a little to see what happens before you head to the dyno. :wink:
I was going to try open the pilots little more, but after test ride with choke opened, I was really not able to determine if this helps or not. I found that my feeling on that could be very misleading.

I have mount for lambda sensor on each pipe, and last time on dyno, pilots were adjusted to get AFR 13 or 12.5 (I don´t remember) on each carb. After that low revs were stunning, and dip after more noticeable. That is why I will just wait for AFR curve and see what we can do, it is running good enough right now. My goal is to get AFR as linear as possible, richer or leaner ...
8541Hawk wrote:Another thought, what ECU are you running?

If it is the stock one, you might not have enough advance through that part of the rev range.
While an advancer might help, if running the stock ECU, it would hurt you are the revs climb as you already have a bit too much advance for a STG1 engine up there :wink:
I am running Ignitech ECU, already adjusted last time, but we can take a look again. I can advance or retard timing wherever I want :-)

Just for interest, Ignitech was real plug´n play, you get new unit with stock map, and just connect it. Software needed for adjustments is available as well. Comparing with Ignitech, Factory Pro advancer makes no sense, I get much more for the same (or less) money.
cybercarl wrote:The top being the blunt yes/no. I just want it clarified as this often gets mixed up.
Front carb: clip on the top to get the leanest setting, rear carb: one slot down (approx 0,5 mm) :-)

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VTRDark
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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by VTRDark » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:54 am

Just for interest, Ignitech was real plug´n play, you get new unit with stock map, and just connect it. Software needed for adjustments is available as well. Comparing with Ignitech, Factory Pro advancer makes no sense, I get much more for the same (or less) money.
:thumbup: Great stuff. Yeh you can't compare being able to make your own maps compared to sticking a mechanical advancer/retarder in place. The mechanical advancers only sell because we don't have access to adjust the map on a standard ECU/ICM and then the marketing hype that goes along with the advancers.

Thanks for the info on the Ignitech that's really good news to hear that it's plug n play with the stock map already set to go :D There's only one problem with that.....It's teasing me to buy one. :lol: It worries me the amount of folk that go messing with ignition timing and slapping things on like advancers without understanding the affects it has in the combustion chamber. Yes on a standard engine there is room to play as things are not built to such fine precision, but when one goes high comp, especially along with aftermarket cams it's another ball game. One can't just go and stick something on, try it and see, and if it feels better, keep it. Things could soon go horribly wrong as the room to play/tinker is not there. Go changing other items like a lightened flywheel for example and this creates an accumulative affect on things.

I have no doubt you have read it already, but for the sake of future readers in this thread and to tie things together.
Ignition Timing Advance or Retard The Why's and How's

I've got to say though Stephen..... it's refreshing to hear your going about things in all the right ways and i'm sure it will pay off in the end. Any chance you could post some pics, maybe a new thread, for the Ignitech unit and plugs etc. It would also be great to see what the Software looks like too. Maybe take a screen shot. :thumbup:

Is the converter unit built into the Ignitech or does it tie into the standard one like the ICM/ECU does as standard? I look forward to hearing the progress with this. I'm thinking with the Ignitech you can adjust the ignition MAP for good torque curve/max hp along with a combination of tuning the fuelling in the carbs to get the fuelling/AF where you want it. I can see this being like adjusting the fuel mixture screws (without a lambda sensor on each pipe :wink: ) and knowing which carb to adjust, then find oneself jumping backwards and forwards between the two as one has an affect on the other kind of thing.

I hope your getting some free or at least cheap dyno time. It would be a great shame if one could not use this tool to it's potential because of costs.

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Stephan
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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:54 am

Yes Carl, I read your link, but I forgot the most what I had understood :-) All ignition tuning was done by dyno operator. I have good idea how to set vtr carbs, but ignition definitely not :-)

Unit is complete replacement, you just disconnect the stock one, and connect the ignitech one. As a bonus, you can use service connector for rpm reading while on dyno (if dyno has suitable equipment). I don´t have software right now, as I am not going to play with (not now), but I am sure it is available. At the end, this is not the big deal, comparing mods I see here around.

I do dyno runs relatively cheap, problem is to find time when it is free.

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan » Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:06 am

Update on 4-5k issue:

Yesterday I went for a ride, and examined low end is definitely running shite with pilots screw setting according to idle drop procedure. Anyway from 5k bike was running fine, and I got good fuel economy, showing me needle and main jet area can stay untouched.
Earlier I did test with choke, showing no improvement. This, together with fact that cold bike was able to start only without choke, and soft slight rumble at low revs when closed throttle, showed me that I am running too rich on pilots.
Went to friend with angle screwdriver, and found pilots were set to 2+2,25. We tried 1,5+1,75 at first, and there was noticeable improvement in 4-5k, but I got slight sharp backfires when closed throttle about 3k. 1,75+2 settings, 4-5 went great again, and sharp backfires were just slightly better. We tried 2+2 as well, but went back to 1,75+2, what is final setting now.
That is good, because i know pilot jet size is appropriate and no need to change it.

Low end is still a bit rough at steady or lightly open throttle, but 4-5k seems to be sorted, sound is the same through 3-9k, and bike is now running without noticeable dip.

From my experience, I can say that transition area between pilot and needle circuit is at 4k, and it is critical to just align AFR of needles with pilots, to get as small difference as possible. Nevermind if slightly richer or leaner, it is really hard to recognize, but the same for both. Everything under 4k is just setting of pilot jet sizes and screw turns.

Second learning is, that with new cams, bike is much more sensitive to small fueling changes, 1/4 turn tuning seems to be not good enough. Idle drop procedure would be probably ok, but 1/2 turn back was too much for new cams with longer opening. And probably 1/4 more on rear is not the best I can do.

From last dyno, I know low end can be tuned to perfection through AFR reading on each pipe, so we will do it again and see if that will match with needle area. If not, settings well be slightly leaner or richer, just to get close to needle area AFR.

But definitely I feel 4-9 is sorted, and there is just fine tuning of pilot screws left. Hope dyno will prove it ... :-)

*quick settings summary
Dr Honda stacks, Pipercross filter, 48 pilots, 188 mains, FactoryPro needles, front clip on the top (leanest), rear one slot down (approx 0,5 mm), two slide holes

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by 8541Hawk » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:29 pm

Good to see you are getting close :thumbup:

I do agree with the direction you are going and at what RPM rangers things are happening.
Between 3.5K-4K is where you come off the pilots (depending on the bike) and that yes things do get "touchy" the more you "tune" this bike.

I'm not sure if the cams or the full exhaust have the most effect on the bottom end but combine them and you better be right or she will run like shite.....lol

The exhaust alone will cause you to drop the pilots one size and the idle drop to around 1\4 turn, with cams it sounds like that adjustment might be even touchier.....is that a word.....lol

Looking forward to seeing the final result :thumbup:
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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by 8541Hawk » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:57 pm

Another bit to remember while tuning is that the main will effect the pilot circuit just like the pilot choice has an effect on the mains.

Just like the pilots keep flowing even after you go past 4K, the mains still flow a small amount when the needle (or slide if that is easier to visualize) is in the fully closed position.

What this means is that when you start upping the mains, you might need to go down a size on the pilots to keep from going rich on the bottom end.


Isn't this all just gangs o' fun.......lol
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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:09 pm

Sorry for bothering you, but would you be able to post/share your used ignition map ?
I've just bought myself an Ignitech TCIP4 for the VTR1000F and feel the delivered map is somewhat calm compared to stock. (Slight midrange losses between 3-5 at low throttle)
This is what you get delivered:
http://www.vtr1000.de/forum/attachment. ... 1440848766

I've tried to let Google find me some VTR maps but believe it ot not - there's no single stock map you can find for the VTR1000F.
The only sensible values for ignition advance were found here on vtr1000.org saying 15 deg idle and 42 deg @ 9500.

I've been using Ignitech units on my RD's for quite some time, but unfortunately I'm missing experience on how a good map for a big 4 stroke would look ...
Bye
Martin

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:24 pm

I am chasing the dynoman for 2 months now to get final dyno sheet, and hopefully we will done it in september. When get there, I will ask for ignition map printscreen as well, as currently I don´t have hardware to read my unit at home. Unfortunately there are not many people who are able to do these things professionally ...

edit: saw this table last time when I was there, from what I know, this unit should have the same map as stock, but who knows ... If I won´t be able to get to dyno, I will purchase the connector, I plan to do it anyway.

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:04 pm

You just need an USB 2 Serial adapter or a laptop with a serial port and a serial cable.
When you connect the ignition unit to the PC you just need to open the software and tell it which com port to use.
Connection is automatically established when you turn the ignition key to on.

The Ignitech software id pretty self explaining and there is s good help:
http://ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/manu ... v88_en.pdf

The biggest advantage: Any setting you make can be saved to a .ign file. These can be exchanged and reviewed by other people who may help to debug things or improve.

PS: if anything failed just use your smartphone to make a photo of his screen ...

PS2: just noticed you're Tchech. How about giving Jan a call and ask if he has a .ign for the famous HRC box? What I heard it has a +4 deg advanced map.
Bye
Martin

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:12 pm

cybercarl wrote:Any chance you could post some pics, maybe a new thread, for the Ignitech unit and plugs etc. It would also be great to see what the Software looks like too. Maybe take a screen shot. :thumbup:

Is the converter unit built into the Ignitech or does it tie into the standard one like the ICM/ECU does as standard?
I've posted some pics here:
http://www.vtr1000.de/forum/showthread.php?t=78632
and also put the direct links to the "ignition how to".

If you're interested in the software, you can download and try it on you own. No licence required.
Here's the software and the manual
http://ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/honda_tci/honda_tci.htm

And last but not least: The box you get is just the ECU. It's used together with the stock converter which leaves a small question mark for the HISS models.

I'm pretty sure that with some additional non plug&play wiring you may be able to attach the ECU directly to coils (maybe not the VTR ones though). COP (coil on plug) would be a nice conversion.
But that'd be some expert work in addition with consulting Ignitech directly.
Bye
Martin

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:37 pm

Good info Martin, I will take look tomorrow as today I got some beer, yes I am Czech :) I will try to call, but ignitech call line is pretty overloaded, not sure if it will be successful way.

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by MK_WF » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:46 am

I forgot to add that you should avoid the cheap cables from china that you'll find on eBay.
Most have a Profilic chipset and that manufacturer changed the drivers in order to make any illegal copy disfunctional. I already have failed to make such cables work on my laptop.
So better get one directly from Ignitech ....

Concerning the telephone call I just thought he'd prefer to talk to a fellow citizen/native speaker than to jerks calling from abroad ...
Anyway: I've send a mail inquirng for other VTR curves he may have.
Bye
Martin

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:17 am

I am going to buy it this week and I will try to read the data till Friday. This one, hope it will work. TCIP4 soft v88 is in my comp.
https://www.alza.cz/axago-ads-50-d246597.htm

I will try to get in touch with them, if they release HRC unit spec (if available), it could help their business too ...

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Re: Red storm dyno - hp on engine

Post by Stephan » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:20 am

MK_WF wrote:Concerning the telephone call I just thought he'd prefer to talk to a fellow citizen/native speaker than to jerks calling from abroad ...
Anyway: I've send a mail inquirng for other VTR curves he may have.
even better, they cancelled their call line, I will write them as well ...

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