The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Just post charts and set up details.
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Varastorm
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The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:31 am

I have been playing with the jetting again after fitting the VTR cams, here are the results.

I did go for an overall leaner setup after the last dyno run results & have been leaning out the mix as it was showing excessive richness across the graph/run.

I felt the jetting was quite close with the current settings, so popped to the rolling road to see what's what.

Here's the setup I used for the dyno run with VTR cams.

Pilot screw
Front------1 3/4 turn out.
Rear-------1 3/4 turns out.

Pilot jets
Front------#48
Rear-------#48

Needles
Dynojet needles fitted (same profile as Std but with the option of different heights).
Front------Clip in 3rd groove from top + 0.7mm washer under clip.
Rear-------Clip in 3rd groove from top + 0.7mm washer under clip..

Mains
Front------#172
Rear-------#175

Slide holes
Std 2 + Dynojet 1
Front-------3 open.
Rear--------3 open.

CV diaphragm springs
Dynojet (short ones)

Air filter
Std paper

Ducati velocity stack mod

VTR cams

TPS
500 ohm's

Porting
Finger porting :lol: .
Intake has been (de flashed) cleaned with 180 grit up to the valve guide & intake rubber trimmed tidily for a seamless transition from carb to head.

This pick shows the increase over the Varadero cams V's VTR cams.

Image

This is the fuelling, the lower two blue lines are the previous (rich) Varadero setup against the (leanish) VTR setup.

Image

Looking at the results of the fuel map the new base line plan is to try this below.

(Richen the top end) Mains back to 175 front, 178 rear.

(Lean the midrange) Lower the needle a clip.

(Richen bottom end) 2 3/4 out on both fuel screws.

Over all, I am quite impressed with the results :D :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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lloydie
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by lloydie » Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:08 pm

Looks like you've done a good job in giving some extra bhp

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:35 pm

lloydie wrote:Looks like you've done a good job in giving some extra bhp
Cheers Lloydie, tbh I am quite impressed with the results myself :biggrin

I am in the process of changing the carb jets & needle height, the new needle height looks bonkers compared to the Std length.

I recon the reason for the big rich dip on most peoples dyno charts is due to the Std needles being way too long.

I'll post some comparison pictures later of the old & new needle length against the Std needle length.

:beer:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:40 pm

That's mighty impressive. You didn't tweak your numbers on the computer did you by any chance :lol: I jest. Yeh good results that. Good few more horses for what you have done and your fuelling is pretty good. Torque curve is smooth, very nice which these bikes like/should be tuned for. Basically take precedence over fuelling. But......I know what it's like once one gets the bug. We can't help tinkering and looking for absolute perfection. Sometimes the weather/seasons don't help either as this can change things and it's like one is chasing their own tail. I wonder how a flow commander would change things if fitted on there now. :think:

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:39 pm

cybercarl wrote:We can't help tinkering and looking for absolute perfection.
Thanks Carl for highlighting our OCD problem :lol:

Right, just reset the settings to what was mentioned above.

My theory is that the mains are too lean, so by increasing the mains it will slightly richen the midrange (needle) which is slightly too rich anyway. So I have dropped the needle one groove & kept the washers as is. Then because the pilot was too lean, dropping the needles would make it even leaner so as a ball park setting I have turned them 2 3/4 out.

No doubt I will have to go in again but will see how it responds & report :thumbup:

I have not been for a ride, but will comment that the idle isn't as smooth as when it was prior to the change :roll:

Below are some pictures of the needle length comparison, they are only quick picks just to give you an idea :thumbup:

This is the needle height (3rd groove from top) used on the above dyno run :thumbup: (It was still showing too rich BTW)

Image

This is the new needle height (clip in 2nd groove from top) :thumbup:

Image
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:32 pm

Been for a little ride & the mains seem good also the needle height, it pulls like a train from 3300rpm.

But under 3000rpm it has a noticeable lean stumble & is popping back through the carb.

Got it home & stripped it again & have screwed both the fuel screws out 3 1/2 turns .

It now needs no choke to start :eek2 but once started it idles better, so hopefully It should be a little rich & I will not need to go down the road of purchasing a pair of #50 pilots :D

Off out for a ride & will update :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Wicky
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Wicky » Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:47 pm

Great result - Wasn't it 95 horsies last time? 105 is on a par with a well set up Storm.

What's the difference in weight between Varadero and Storm?
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:21 pm

Wicky wrote:Great result - Wasn't it 95 horsies last time? 105 is on a par with a well set up Storm.What's the difference in weight between Varadero and Storm?
Cheers Wicky, I am really impressed too :thumbup:

Weight difference between the two is "Lots" :lol: But I'm a big fella so it's all in perspective :D

I recon I can eek out a few more ponies top end & get to the bottom of the rich midrange problem many on here have :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Wicky » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:26 pm

You vs Marty @ Santa Pod :thumbup:
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:36 pm

Just back from a little ride with the #48's pilots & 3 1/2 turns out & it still has the surging & popping at around 3000rpm.

She does try to clear & sort itself out if I give it a little choke, so I am going to go richer & purchase some #50 pilots.

I think because I have dropped the needles (around 2mm, midrange is the best ever btw) I am out of range using the #48's & the fuel screw.

So I'll call Allens performance tomorrow & hopefully they can sort me out :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:06 pm

I am out of range using the #48's & the fuel screw.
Been there done that and settled back on 48s and raising the needles a tad as IIRC it never idled as well with 50's and choke was very temperamental (when I could even use it) most of the time the choke was never necessary and the bike was temperamental starting and warming up. Factory pro strangely enough supply 50 pilots with their kits. It's worth a shot and see how you get on. I'll take guess you will only require between 1 and 1.5 turns out on the fuel screws with them.

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:46 pm

cybercarl wrote:
I am out of range using the #48's & the fuel screw.
Been there done that and settled back on 48s and raising the needles a tad as IIRC it never idled as well with 50's and choke was very temperamental (when I could even use it) most of the time the choke was never necessary and the bike was temperamental starting and warming up. Factory pro strangely enough supply 50 pilots with their kits. It's worth a shot and see how you get on. I'll take guess you will only require between 1 and 1.5 turns out on the fuel screws with them.

(:-})
I know it's going to be a little edgy with #50's Carl, but now I've tried it with the needles dropped 2mm I don't want to go back.

It's impressive to say the least, perhaps there will be no fix for the leaner needles hence every one running a rich midrange.

But I'll try my best to get it to work :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:01 am

cybercarl wrote:Been there done that and settled back on 48s and raising the needles a tad as IIRC it never idled as well with 50's
Carl, can you remember how low you had the needles when the 50's were fitted?

I am hoping that they weren't as low as what I am running at the moment (2nd groove down on DJ needles).

TBH, I am toying with the idea of purchasing #52 pilots (even though Factory pro only supply #50's) whilst trying to get in touch with Allens Perf & after reading this.

http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_p ... ruise.html

This is the copied link from above :thumbup:
Pilot Jets

The affect of pj size change on idle and cruise operation


Question:

Greg Johnson wrote:

> I have installed one of your 1.0 jet kits on my R6 and I am coming to the final parts of tuning it.

> It runs well and passes most of the tests as provided on your tuning guide. It does, however, appear to be lean low down, as there is a "hole" when cracking the throttle wide open at below 2500rpm and at high rpm/part throttle, it shows some surging. I have though set the fuel screws, so that it idles correctly and returns to the correct rpm, when the idle is set below 1000rpm and the throttle is blipped.

> To fix the lean patch, is it better to go the next step up in pilot jets, rather than adjust the fuel screw?
> Will upsizing the pilot jet, require re-adjustment of the fuel screw and thus negating some of or all of the gains made by the larger pilot jet?

> Thanks,
> Greg J


Answer:

Greg - Good diagnosis on the pilot jet size -

As far as the pilot... Look at it this way...

There are 4 outlet holes for the pilot mixture. ~3-4 at the butterfly and one "downstream" of that (for 75% of the idle mixture).

1 hole is controlled by the mixture screw and with the other 3 or 4, max flow is limited by the size of the pilot jet.

At idle, 1 hole (metered by the fuel screw) and 1 un metered hole are open.

At cruise, when the "butterfly" is just "cracked", all 3-4 unmetered holes + the 1 metered one are uncovered -

So.....

At cruise, you get those 3 unmetered holes + the metered hole... So, at least 75% of the fuel delivered at cruise is limited by the size of the pilot jet.

At idle, you get 100% of the trimmed 1 hole + a butterfly valve-trimmed amount of the other 3-4 metered holes.

Rule of thumb....
If you go 1 size larger or smaller on the size of the pilot jet, you will change the fuel screw ~1.5x richer or leaner to retain the original idle mixture -

Example:
You have a #40 pilot jet installed (with the proper main, needle height and fuel level already done) and to get best idle, you are 4.0 turns out (from lightly bottomed out).
Cruise seems lean....

So, I'd expect that I could richen the cruise with 1 size larger (42) pilot jet (size of pj is 75% of cruise mixture) and the "trim" the fuel screw "in" for best mixture for best idle (size of pilot is 25% of idle mixture).

To go back to ~ the same idle mixture, after going from 40 pj/4.0x to the 42........ try 2.5x

40 pj / 4.0x = our reference idle mixture
42 pj / 2.5x = ~ same idle mixture
38 pj /5.5x = ~ same idle mixture (this is a "stretch - after 4.5x, not much changes)

(Using another "rule of thumb", if you have the correct pilot jet, the fuel screw will end up at between 1.5x and 3.0x when set for best idle.)

Marc
PS, any advice from anybody running super low needle settings would be great :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:00 pm

Had a good talk with a helpful guy at Allens & he talked me into purchasing #50's & #52's :roll:

I came off the phone & thought :wtf: am I doing buying both sets :eh:

Super nice guy, but what a salesman :clap: :clap: :clap: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Still got the feeling not many have tried it on a RRoad running DJ needles this lean (1st or 2nd groove from the top) with the #50's or #52's.

If they have, or know of any rolling road printouts please point them out to me :thumbup: as I can't find any on the web :thumbup:

It might save me dyno time too :lol:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:31 pm

Carl, can you remember how low you had the needles when the 50's were fitted?
I have played with various setups along the way but I am using Factory Pro.

06/06/2012
BMC filter
Front carb
180 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 1.5 turns out

Rear carb
182 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 1.5 turns out


06/06/2012
BMC filter
Front carb
178 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 1.5 turns out

Rear carb
180 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 1.5 turns out


K&N
Front carb
180 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 2.1/4 turns out
rear emulsion tube to lean out the front cylinder

Rear carb
182 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 2.5 turns out


19/07/2012
K&N
Front carb
180 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 1.5 turns out
standard emulsion tube back in

Rear carb
182 main
50 pilot
needle clip 4th from the bottom
A/F 1.3/4 turns out


31/07/2012
K&N
Front carb
180 main
50 pilot
needle clip 3th from the bottom
A/F 1.5 turns out
standard emulsion tube back in

Rear carb
182 main
50 pilot
needle clip 3th from the bottom
A/F 1.3/4 turns out


01/08/2012
K&N
Front carb
180 main
50 pilot
needle clip 3th from the bottom
A/F 1.5 turns out
standard emulsion tube back in

Rear carb
182 main
50 pilot
needle clip 3th from the bottom
Added 20thou Shim
A/F 1.3/4 turns out


03/08/2012
K&N
Front carb
180 main
50 pilot
needle clip 2nd from the bottom
A/F 2.0 turns out
standard emulsion tube back in

Rear carb
182 main
50 pilot
needle clip 2nd from the bottom
Added 20thou Shim
A/F 2.1/4 turns out

You want more. :lol: :lol:

As for the 52 pilot, there's no harm in trying. You never know it may very well work. The general rule is that you should have no more than 3 turns out and no less than 1 turn out on the Fuel mixture screw. If you require more than 3 turns out then go up 1 size on the pilot jet and if you require less than 1 turn, then go down 1 size.

I only glanced over that quote for now but I wonder if they are referring to hole in the carb throat below the butterfly which is how the bike ticks over with a closed throttle/butterfly.

(:-})
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