The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Just post charts and set up details.
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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:15 pm

Just rebuilt the bike with the #45's & pilots 2 turns out each, started first prod of the starter with half choke & no throttle :D

I let it idle for around 3-4 minutes as I put the fairing on, I didn't have to touch anything to correct or overcome any issues :D it idles like it used to again :thumbup:

It started to rain when I was putting the tools away :x so will more than likely take it for a ride tomorrow weather permitting.

Hopefully this will be the final shakedown run before the dyno run next week :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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VTRDark
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:08 pm

started first prod of the starter with half choke & no throttle :D
Was this it's first start of the day or had the bike previously been warmed up.

Mine at the moment with it's first start off the day is as follows. Pull choke (technically an enricher) right out, hit the start button/no throttle and it idles at a fast idle. I can smell the richness while running on the choke. I leave the bike run for about 1 minute then push the choke in, slowly blip the throttle or it will stall from the over richness of having been running on choke. Give it another few bigger blips to clear it out and off I go.

During the day it don't need any choke and I push on the starter btn along with slight bit of throttle. Only once the engine starts to really cool down it will then maybe require a tad of choke or generally I just give it some more throttle and tease it a bit for a moment so it don't stall.

The next day I am back to square one with the choke right out again for it's first start.

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:09 pm

cybercarl wrote:Was this it's first start of the day or had the bike previously been warmed up.
First of the day Carl, tbh two days. Bit ill yesterday :sad2

Tools out, stripped it down & swapped pilots.

Once the tank was reconnected I gave it a few minutes to gurgle & fill the carbs up, then pressed the button. Boom Boom :thumbup:

That's not a Basil Bush joke either :lol: :lol: :lol: Boom Boom, that is though :lol: :lol: :lol:

I can't really comment on the new normal starting procedure, but the old running/starting routine does sound similar to yours. I tend not to blip the throttle though as I do feel the exhausts are a tad too loud :redface
I've been changing so many things this last month. I'm even dreaming about dyno graphs & carbs :lol: :wtf:

Just been for a 20 mile test ride & am very happy. No high speed runs though, as I feel I am there now with that jetting zone.

Lots & lots of Fast & slow double roundabouts, as they seem to really highlight issues with tiny feathering throttle movements at full lean.

Also they also allow me to clear its throat between the roundabout circles.

I'll be giving Mr Paul Bland (The Dyno man) a ring Monday & take it from there.

What usually happens is we strap the bike down, connect the ignition take off to the front HT lead & shove the probe into the exhaust. He goes to make a cuppa whilst I warm the bike up & study the sub 3000rpm no load mixture :wink: So if it is out, I make a mental note & correct when I get it home :thumbup:

Really feel confident with this carb set up now :biggrin

The pressures on :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:39 pm

Sounds like you getting very close. :thumbup:
That's not a Basil Bush joke either
I'm older enough to remember him too. :plainsmile
I've been changing so many things this last month. I'm even dreaming about dyno graphs & carbs :lol: :wtf:
Ha ha I have had a dream before where I have been on the forum answering posts. I woke up and got on the computer and was a bit confused to say the least. :lol:

I look forward to seeing the dyno reading but don't forget it's only anther tool and there is room for user and machine error. A dyno is only as good as the tech that uses it.
What usually happens is we strap the bike down, connect the ignition take off to the front HT lead & shove the probe into the exhaust. He goes to make a cuppa whilst I warm the bike up & study the sub 3000rpm no load mixture :wink: So if it is out, I make a mental note & correct when I get it home :thumbup:
Now here lays a slight issue with these bikes on a dyno as they have two end cans and the mixture from both cylinders is mixed together in the headers. You will get a slightly different reading from each can. This is one of the reasons some have gone the Lambda sensor route. or Ideally one really needs a dyno with two probes, one for each can and then let the machine work out the calculations. Love the idea of finding your mixture on the dyno first but I am not sure how accurate it would be. Maybe you could probe both cans. Get the front and the rear. It wont be perfect but it will be close and should be a slight difference between the two. Then take into account that there is a restrictor in the right hand header pipe so at idle/low revs you have more of the mixed gases from each cylinder pumping out the left can until the revs are raised.

I don't mean to complicate things but it i's something you should be aware of and another reason why real world road testing is so important. :thumbup:

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by sirch345 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:55 pm

Varastorm wrote: I'll be giving Mr Paul Bland (The Dyno man) a ring Monday & take it from there.
Good luck with the dyno run on Monday Phil :)

I too remember Basil Brush :lol:

Chris.
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by 8541Hawk » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:27 pm

I'm pretty sure I'm the one being referred to when the statement about some people hoping he fails, which is unfortunate as I have just tried to help out even though what I have to say doesn't want to be heard.

From my side it is kind of hard to have a discussion when the questions I ask are just ignored.

The 2 big ones on this topic are:

Are you running the XL airbox and\or exhaust?
If running one or both of those bits, then they are designed to make power 1K rpm lower than the cams you have installed.
The mismatch might be the reason for all the carb issues as the systems are now fighting each other instead of working together.

Then the needle question again, If the needles are all wrong then what about all those bikes Mr Ditchfield tuned?
Is he really that poor of a tuner that he couldn't see the needles were flawed?

So carry on and hope you get you project figured out.

I'll stay in the camp of, with all the development done to these bikes, if there was a needle issue it would have been found a long time ago.
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by 8541Hawk » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:52 pm

The reason I keep asking about Roger's tuning is a attempt at a bit of a thought exercise on my end.

You have come to the conclusion that the needles are too rich, even tough that is different than any other tuner has found.
At that point you must determine have you really found something new or have you done something else that is causing an issue that for all intents and purposes looks like the issue you think it is?

Then here are a couple more pieces of info to ponder on this issue.

First is that in stock form in 1998 the VTR1000f held the record for the fastest production bike in a 60-80mph roll on.
If you look at the RPM range for those speeds in 6th, it is right where you say the needle profile is wrong.
So how did they manage to make the fastest bike around in that range with improperly profiled needles?

The second is that there has only been one "option" needle ever made for this bike.
Yes you can get a few different aftermarket needles but what I mean is only one jet kit ever gave you the option of choosing needles.
That was HRC (I'll leave out the Moriwaki kit as most don't even know one existed....lol)
And you know what the option was?? Richer in the mid-range.

So while some might think I am just being negative or have some issue with a new carb set up........ the truth is far from that.
Though I doubt I am believed at times.....
I'll try again with:
Don't go down the rabbit hole......

There is a reason that there has been no change in the needle design for this bike in almost 20yrs.
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by gl_s_r » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:24 am

Say it as you see it hawk lol... but I Think your right.

Vara...

I have a complete moriwaki tuning set for the carbs including all the needles and springs etc... They are obviously for the moriwaki carbs but what I can say is that internally they are different to standard carbs so of no real use to your investigations... dedicated needles and carbs.
Why ask... sometime you just go to do it and find out?

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:50 pm

I called Paul the dyno guy a few times yesterday, I also left a message asking if he could fit me in, but no answer.

Will try again Wednesday :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by gl_s_r » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:40 am

Good luck.. be good to see if you have cracked it.
Why ask... sometime you just go to do it and find out?

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VTRDark
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:37 am

You will get there and I tell you what, there wont be many Vara's that will pull like yours. :biggrin

Did you see I posted Factory Pro Needle pics with measurements.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=36959&p=387231&hilit=keihin#p387231

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by NZSpokes » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:57 am

I got to say this as it is bugging me. Filing needles. With the structure of the needle changed and the vibration that goes through them in normal operation, could the needle fail and be drawn into the engine? :eek2

I would think that could be an engine killer.

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:42 am

:eek2 What a thought, but a good point well made. I wonder how many engines have been killed from experimentation amongst the biking communities.

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:27 pm

gl_s_r wrote:Good luck.. be good to see if you have cracked it.
Popped to see Paul the dyno guy today, thinking he was too busy to answer the phone. The place was locked up & no sign of life :(

Just hope he's on holiday, as I am really looking forward to the results too :thumbup:
cybercarl wrote:Did you see I posted Factory Pro Needle pics with measurements.
I have had a quick look Carl but I've been super busy the last couple of days. Big big thanks for stripping the bike & taking photo's with measurements :D :thumbup:
NZSpokes wrote:I got to say this as it is bugging me. Filing needles. With the structure of the needle changed and the vibration that goes through them in normal operation, could the needle fail and be drawn into the engine?
The Dj needles are stainless steel NZSpokes, so I think they would still be be okay to do the job they were designed for.

Don't be deceived by the magnified pictures, they do exaggerate the amount of metal removed. Once they are cleaned of all the felt pen & fitted, you can hardly see the filed flats.

The original DJ straight section was 2.84mm, I filed the straight section to 2.72-3mm. It was a lot better but I went in & had another go and filed them 1mm lower & went down to 2.63 - 2.60.

So in reality I have only removed a slice 0.2mm. I think I am safe from needles failing, but if it does you'll be the first to know :thumbup:
8541Hawk wrote:if there was a needle issue it would have been found a long time ago.
8541Hawk, I feel that it's pointless answering/arguing with you with my thoughts on filing needles as you can come across quite aggressive in getting your point over.

But obviously I do feel the needle profiles can be changed so they work better for me & my bike.

All I am looking for a linear'ish 13/1 AFR in the needle fuelling zone & I do believe it's the needle profile causing the lean issue around 3000rpm & not the slide speeds like you do.

I also recon that there are other ways to solve the problem, but I have chosen this way. Ways skin a cat & all that....

We obviously have differing views & while I respect yours & am grateful for the information you post, I am keen to continue on the path I have chosen at the moment.

I do apologise for being a little rude not answering your questions as I was hoping to of posted the dyno graphs up by now so we could all see them & comment on the outcome for ourselves :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Stephan » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:45 pm

Varastorm wrote: Popped to see Paul the dyno guy today, thinking he was too busy to answer the phone. The place was locked up & no sign of life :(

Just hope he's on holiday, as I am really looking forward to the results too :thumbup:
seems to be good holiday time for dynomans, I wait till he will return as well :-)

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