The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Just post charts and set up details.
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MacV2
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by MacV2 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:01 pm

Varastorm wrote:
cybercarl wrote:That dyno run was bit disheartening I expect but at least you know which direction to go in now.
Yea, I was a bit miffed tbh. But back on track again now :thumbup:

I stripped her again yesterday & replaced the thin (0.5mm) washer for a thick (0.75mm) washer, the clip is still in the top #1 groove btw.

But since I was in there, I had another go at the needles. I filed another 0.15mm from the mid section of the needle (hopefully the 5000rpm lean zone), then blended it in all nicey nicey.

Hopefully the metal removal & raising the needle 0.25mm should help the afr in the lean 5000rpm zone.

The main reason for the slide/spring change is because of the cheap £15 dyno run as it will allow me to see what's what for not a lot of cash.

Hopefully it will reveal an answer to the lean 4000rpm as seen on the graph & the sluggish feel it has given the acceleration. Then maybe I can either replace the DJ spring or open out a slide hole, to give me back the urgency it once had.

If all the above works then it looks as if I am going to have to concentrate on the pilots again. If you notice on the last run, we started at a lower 2000rpm 4th gear roll on, just to highlight any issues before the lean 4000rpm bump & tbh the fuelling looks way too rich on the pilot :roll: :lol: :lol: :thumbup:
What before you started fecking about with it ??? :wink:
Lowering the tone since 2007...

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:15 pm

MacV2 wrote:What before you started fecking about with it ???
:lol: :lol: :lol: , you might be right...... :roll:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Latest Dyno run, 108.27bhp :D Quite impressed with the numbers tbh :thumbup:

Still need to work on the jetting though :roll:

Here's the setup :thumbup:

Std filter.

Ducati stack mod.

De Flashed intake ports up to valve guide (finger porting).

Pilots: 1 turn out each.

Pilot jets: 45's

Slides running with 2 holes open & Std springs.

Needles: Dynojet filed needles, clip in top #1 groove & 0,7mm washer under clip.

Mains: 175 Front, 178 Rear.

Image
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

NZSpokes
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by NZSpokes » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:22 pm

Varastorm wrote:Latest Dyno run, 108.27bhp :D Quite impressed with the numbers tbh :thumbup:

Still need to work on the jetting though :roll:

Here's the setup :thumbup:

Std filter.

Ducati stack mod.

De Flashed intake ports up to valve guide (finger porting).

Pilots: 1 turn out each.

Pilot jets: 45's

Slides running with 2 holes open & Std springs.

Needles: Dynojet filed needles, clip in top #1 groove & 0,7mm washer under clip.

Mains: 175 Front, 178 Rear.

Image
So thats pretty much a stock VTR setup then.

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:34 pm

NZSpokes wrote:So thats pretty much a stock VTR setup then.
Yea, not bad for a Varadero that was giving me a Std 85bhp & it's now giving me 108bhp :lol: :lol: :D

The reason I posted this first run was to highlight a back to back run that I am half way through. Hopefully I can run it tomorrow & see what afr changes opened up DJ holes in the slides & DJ springs back in make.

I was not looking at the Power, but it did impress me.

I am just concentrating on the mid range afr mixture & sharing my journey with everyone.

It might help someone.....
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:42 pm

Here's the dyno graph as promised :thumbup:

Comparison of: 3 hole slides + (short) DJ springs --V's-- Std 2 hole slides + Std springs.

Redline is of an opened up Dynojet slide hole (3 holes) & shorter DJ spring :thumbdown: (Runs poor under 5000rpm, lean surging)

Blueline is overlaid run from yesterday :thumbup:

Image
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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VTRDark
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:46 pm

As has always been said then. If using Dynojet kit do not drill the extra slide hole and/or use Dynojet springs :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14214#p238580

As for your Dyno run I would be very happy with that. Look at that torque curve/line 8O As for fuelling :roll: I don't know what to say there. O' OK then. Well, it's a mess but hey ho, if the bike runs well and there are no issues then go with it. Tune to torque not fuelling. Though it would be nice to have a perfect torque curve and fuelling i'm not sure if that's possible.

That's a massive difference in power from when you started with. Massessssssss :Shock1:

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:22 pm

cybercarl wrote:As has always been said then. If using Dynojet kit do not drill the extra slide hole and/or use Dynojet springs
I knew it was going to bollox the fuelling all up, but now I've put my head on the block so everyone can see by how much it does effect the mix & in what area :thumbup:

Strange they don't print this fuelling curve on the dyno jet box :lol: :lol: :lol: :shh:

Here's todays torque graph Carl :thumbup:

Image
cybercarl wrote:As for fuelling I don't know what to say there.
It was an experiment, I was quite happy with the fuelling before I did this change :thumbup:

I just thought I would try a few things with the slides & springs seeing that the runs where only £15 each & the money was going to a good cause. The North Wales Air Ambulance :thumbup:

I have ripped it apart again tonight & am going to set it up with 1 slide hole in each slide & Std springs :lol: :roll:

If it runs okay, I'll run it like that till I go for another run, in a week or two, I'll post that up too & then we'll have the full set :lol:

I have been there for the two days & Altogether, around 20 bikes yesterday & around 30 today. So funny watching peoples faces when their bikes are been put through their paces :lol: :lol: Sometimes its better than watching the actual bikes :thumbup:

Thanks for the reply btw, I feel I am talking to myself sometimes :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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VTRDark
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by VTRDark » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:11 am

I talk to myslef all the time.
I have ripped it apart again tonight & am going to set it up with 1 slide hole in each slide & Std springs :lol: :roll:

If it runs okay, I'll run it like that till I go for another run, in a week or two, I'll post that up too & then we'll have the full set :lol:
Good man thanks for that. :clap: :clap: I don't think we have had a set of various setups/dyno runs from the same bike before. It would be worth gathering the runs and listing them in an order along with what's what, jetting, filter etc into their own sticky thread/post in this Dyno Charts section of the forum. Title it something along the lines of "How One Thing Affects Another" or "Jetting/Dyno Run Comparisons" :think: Mmmm actually maybe the Carb Thread would be a better place to post it. :think:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14214

Dam looking at it..... we would be better off with a new forum section/folder added to the Workshop section "Carbs and Fuelling" Mmmmm ideas ideas. We should really break the The Workshop Knowledgebase up into sections, a bit like a workshop manual. :idea: :idea:

I'm waffling now...had a smoke :lol:

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Pete.L
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Pete.L » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:30 pm

Varastorm wrote:Thanks for the reply btw, I feel I am talking to myself sometimes
Nowt wrong with that! I get into far less arguments that way
Looks like you've got it all under control now :thumbup:
My new ride is a bit of a Howler and I love to make her Squeal

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tony.mon
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by tony.mon » Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:18 pm

Without in any way wishing to sound as if I'm showing off, I knew before playing with oversized airboxes, oversize valves, different air filters, airbox mods etc that it was going to cost me a fortune in dyno time to get it running right, especially as I wanted to change things one at a time and see what each change did rather than doing them all and risking one thing cancelling out another.
So I made and fitted a Lambda sensor in each down pipe and a dash display so that I could see what the fuelling was doing as I was riding.
This means that you can get fuelling right on each cylinder- ever noticed that they're not set up the same front and rear?
As you found, poking a sniffer sensor tube down one or the other exhaust gives teh same readings- because the exhaust gases mix together before that point.

So you need to sample the mixture for each cylinder on the downpipe, not in the end can.

The only time I have to pay for a dyno run now is to get a power or torque figure.
The whole thing cost me less than £200, and I would have spent way more than that on dyno runs by now if I hadn't.

One possibility is to make a "portable" set, and install the Lambda sensors in a spare downpipe- you can use it until yours is right, then sell it on the the next bloke, or rent the set out.

I like leaving mine in place, as it gives me something to fiddle with on long boring journeys. In my case I found that fitting a a FLo Commander as well meant that I can adjust main jet fuelling in a minute or two, richening or leaning off cylinders as a pair, (unless you buy two, then you could do each one separately, I suppose), but at least it allows you to try a main jet size bigger or up to three steps smaller without having to take the carbs off, and you know for sure which direction to go in.

Good fun, though, isn't it?
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.

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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by bigtwinthing » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:54 am

Good fun!!! Tony iam amazed you get time to ride it. Thank god for fuel injection and a power commander i say. :lol: Mines on a dyno next month and iam going to be interested on what that says. I had a blast on Friday last week after leaving AP,s with a guy on a MT-09. Off the lights and up to about 130 etc. They do go well for sure but i still think they aint 115 bhp at the back wheel.
missing the noise, not the vibes. However never say never!

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:07 pm

Update,

My last carb mod/setting has been counteracting a problem that I made for myself.

When filing the needles, I should not of removed any metal from the section at the top of the needle.

This is where the pilot system controls the fuel flow, so with me filing the needle in the wrong area there is fuel passing the needle at low/idle & causing a rich issue :problem:

I only have one set of DJ needles I have been trying to work around this problem I gave myself :roll:

Initially I was using #45 pilots with one turn out.

Full choke to start & after 5 seconds no choke needed, a blip or two & all is good. It did have a surge at 2000rpm & when the choke was pulled to see if it was lean or rich, it died, this to me was a rich surge.

Now I am using the Varadero's #42 pilots with the fuel screws 2 1/2 turns out, this worked quite well. But I could still feel a very slight 2000rpm issue.

So, pulled it apart again today & am trying the pilots at 1 1/2 turns out. Will update but I hope I can run her up again on the dyno soon to see if I can salvage the needles :thumbup:

I was going to do a dyno run with one slide hole open, just for back to back "1 hole,2 hole & 3 hole" differences.

But tbh, throttle response wise it ran very sluggishly when I changed it over to 1 hole so didn't bother with the dyno run. Sorry btw if anyone was interested.

Then with me running the soft Super Corsa's back & forth on the dual carriageway to the Dyno I wrecked them :roll:

Then the rear Hagon shock gave up & leaked all of it's oil, bouncey bouncey.... knackered.

So things have been on hold whilst I sorted a replacement shock & tyres.

Oh, & I didn't realise I had been running around for 4 months with no T&T, I am sure it would of been in the crusher if caught.... :lol:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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lloydie
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by lloydie » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:13 pm

Might of been better off if they did catch you ! At least then you could start over again but with a storm :-)

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Varastorm
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Re: The Varastorm Dyno run (VTR cams)

Post by Varastorm » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:03 pm

I have copied this to this thread to try & keep the on going carb mods on the Varadero in one place :thumbup:

Thanks for all the input guys, appreciate it :thumbup:

The problem is that I'm torn between the amazing fuel economy (45ish to the gallon) & top end performance (108ish BHP) tbh.

After the chat with Paul the dyno man & coming to a joint decision of "yep, maybe a little too lean!" I came home & had a good hunt for info on the web.

The decision I've made is to up the main jets :wtf:. This was not part of the original plan, as I was quite happy with the dyno graph reading of 108ish bhp.

My theory behind this came after looking at reading lot's of "V" twin dyno graphs. The best power for a "V" is achieved @ 12.5/1 AFR.

So with that in mind & with the top end currently running at 12.9/1 afr with Keihin 175F & Keihin 178R. I decided to increase the mains to Keihin 178F & Keihin 180R. Hopefully this will get the top end closer to 12.5/1 & have a knock on effect of slightly richening the midrange also.

Two birds with one stone. The only problem with this is that I don't have a 180 Keihin Main for the rear carb :problem:

With the carbs in bits, I had no option but to fall back on the Dyno jet mains, but there is no hard evidence out there to be able to compare like for like, very poor really.

But I trawled through the posts on this forum to see what other people were using & decided to take a stab on using a DJ185 front & DJ190 rear.

The result is bonkers, the pull to the redline has increased again & the PoP'n & Banging has also decreased.

I have not pulled the plugs again to see if there is any signs of a richer afr, but at the moment I am going to let it be.

Since the fitting of the DJ mains I have just ridden it & it feels really good now.

Time is coming for another Dyno run :thumbup:
PS. "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."

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