Trail Braking

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bigtwinthing
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by bigtwinthing » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:35 pm

gl_s_r wrote:I think you could take my back brake off and I wouldn't miss it.... think my biggest faux pas is from my young motocross days when I was a kid and the habit of two fingered braking.. that is all I got told off for on all my lessons and the main thing I had to think of when I done my test.

Thanks for the link and the write up...

Just been thinking about bad habits that you get into and I am sure that due to the motocross days I also have a problem with right hand corners.. I love going round left hand ones and feel really comfortable when I am in them but right hands ones... don't know, it just doesn't feel the same.

Don't know if that is the fact most courses were counter-clockwise when I done motocross or it's a natural thing and other people have a slight difference in technique, posture, strength or whatever on left and right corners but either way I hate right handers and that is such a shame these days with so many roundabouts.
Hey i noticed that when we went to grain, i am the same, love LH but not so good on the right. you lean further over on the left, but i bet if you look, the chicken strips are the same, i think if you are not so keen 1 side you tend to sit upright a bit more on the bike but actually lean the same does that make sense? not that aim contradicting or anything, just noticed it when we rode out
missing the noise, not the vibes. However never say never!

Dendrob
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Dendrob » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:04 pm

bigtwinthing wrote:
gl_s_r wrote:I think you could take my back brake off and I wouldn't miss it.... think my biggest faux pas is from my young motocross days when I was a kid and the habit of two fingered braking.. that is all I got told off for on all my lessons and the main thing I had to think of when I done my test.

Thanks for the link and the write up...

Just been thinking about bad habits that you get into and I am sure that due to the motocross days I also have a problem with right hand corners.. I love going round left hand ones and feel really comfortable when I am in them but right hands ones... don't know, it just doesn't feel the same.

Don't know if that is the fact most courses were counter-clockwise when I done motocross or it's a natural thing and other people have a slight difference in technique, posture, strength or whatever on left and right corners but either way I hate right handers and that is such a shame these days with so many roundabouts.
Hey i noticed that when we went to grain, i am the same, love LH but not so good on the right. you lean further over on the left, but i bet if you look, the chicken strips are the same, i think if you are not so keen 1 side you tend to sit upright a bit more on the bike but actually lean the same does that make sense? not that aim contradicting or anything, just noticed it when we rode out
With respect to road riding:

On right handers when you're at the apex you're at risk of being swiped by a vehicle coming the opposite way. When you're in a left hander you're furthest away from oncoming traffic. But, if you run wide the opposite applies!

In summary I've never been aware of a l/h versus r/h bend influencing me per se but the context of the bend in any given scenario obviously will.

I haven't noticed any chicken strips being left attached on either side, but I have noticed uneven tread wear on the flanks of the front tyre. This is quite common it seems. But difficult to explain.

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fabiostar
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by fabiostar » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:57 pm

I haven't noticed any chicken strips being left attached on either side, but I have noticed uneven tread wear on the flanks of the front tyre. This is quite common it seems. But difficult to explain.[/quote]

its the camber on the roads. it generally wears the front tyre on the right hand side more but in countries that drive on the other side, the left hand wears more.
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:

Dendrob
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Dendrob » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:26 am

fabiostar wrote:
its the camber on the roads. it generally wears the front tyre on the right hand side more but in countries that drive on the other side, the left hand wears more.
Yeah I've heard that said a few times. Maybe it's right. What is odd though is that the wear is half way over, on the flanks of the front tyre. It seems way too far over for road camber to cause it, certainly in straight running. I wonder if the wear is attributed to how the front tyre turns the bike? Possibly road camber plays apart here? I've never logged whether each of my tyres always wears more on the same side or not.

Weird things these motor sickles. Weird, but wonderful.

vardypeeps
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by vardypeeps » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:42 pm

Brilliant video. Never had the guts even on track to fully trail brake into an apex.
Scary stuff!

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8541Hawk
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by 8541Hawk » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:58 pm

Stormin Ben wrote:To my mind trail braking to the apex is very much a performance technique and by and large I would advocate restricting its usage to either track use or your favourite piece of road.
It is simply a method of shifting the braking phase of corner entry deeper into the corner
I have to disagree here. I trail brake into every corner. Yes ever single corner. It might not be "aggressive" braking but I am on the brake until I am on the throttle. To my mind it is the safest way to ride.
That is what trail braking actually means. In the simplest terms you "trail" the brakes off while adding throttle. It has nothing to do with going deeper into a corner. It is just a way to be in better control of the bike while you corner.
Stormin Ben wrote:This, to my mind, is most definitely NOT the same as the ability to brake mid corner
That is a vital skill and one that I would advocate practicing as much as possible so that when/if you ever do need it it is an automatic process, rather than a panic reaction and more importantly you know how the bike is going to react.


This is where trail braking and practicing trail braking will save you. Which do you think will give smoother braking action? Applying the brakes mid corner and hope you don't grab too much in a "panic" situation or while trail braking, just add a little more brake as they are already applied?
Stormin Ben wrote:As for the losing the front/ rear debate how many people do you know who have lost the front and not crashed? A damn sight less than those losing the rear I'll bet!
Losing the rear has three options:
Besides the simple answer of lose the front, low side. Lose the rear, high side. You have missed one of the most important aspects of trail braking.
It makes cornering safer.

How is this possible, lets look at what is going on with the front tire as you enter a corner.
If you do not trail brake or let off the brake before turning you will cause the front end to rebound back up (as you remove weight from the front end when you release the brakes) which changes the rake and trail as you are trying to turn. Not to good for front end traction.

Now if you trail brake into the same corner, you keep the weight on the front tire. This causes the tire to deform which actually gives you a larger contact patch for the front tire. The effect is simple, more rubber on the road, more traction.
You also do not have to deal with the turning rate of the bike changing as the front end rises when you release the brakes before you turn.

Add to that it is always safer and quicker to add a little brake than it is to apply the brakes is a "panic" situation (and needing to suddenly slow mid corner is usually a "panic" situation) and trail braking can be a life saver. :D
To err is human, to forgive is divine. Neither, however, is Marine Corps policy

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8541Hawk
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by 8541Hawk » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:02 pm

Dendrob wrote:
fabiostar wrote:
its the camber on the roads. it generally wears the front tyre on the right hand side more but in countries that drive on the other side, the left hand wears more.
Yeah I've heard that said a few times. Maybe it's right. What is odd though is that the wear is half way over, on the flanks of the front tyre. It seems way too far over for road camber to cause it, certainly in straight running. I wonder if the wear is attributed to how the front tyre turns the bike? Possibly road camber plays apart here? I've never logged whether each of my tyres always wears more on the same side or not.

Weird things these motor sickles. Weird, but wonderful.
Another thing to look at is one direction of turning (depending on which side of the road you normally ride on) will be tighter turns than the other direction. For example, with your riding on the left side of the road the left turns you make have a tighter radius than the the right turns.

This will cause uneven wear of the front tire. :thumbup:
To err is human, to forgive is divine. Neither, however, is Marine Corps policy

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bigtwinthing
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by bigtwinthing » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:35 pm

I read this thread all over again, i still lean almost the same but tighter on the left and i lean down more on the left. Turning right i sit up more, don't know why though!!. I rarely use the brakes after the first initial braking bit ( unless the road needs me to for a slowing vehicle etc) as i like to get all the suspension settled before taking the bend etc. My fave bend in Cadnum i can happily take at 56mph, but i did this with the Storm with great suspension, WP Rear and Rodgered forks etc. On the CBF its a tad slower as the bloody stand hits. It seems bloody fast to me, i videos the speedo on a run to check. My mate has a Tuono and i can keep with him in this bend no probs so he must be a pussy in the bends etc :lol: I can't keep up on the straights but next bend i am there again.

Leaning and cornering is the thing for me and why i love Biking. I ski the same way, but can easily get my hands and almost my shoulder down but still stay on the Ski,s. Cant wait till the roads dry out and i have the online on to try them. Spring is on the way.
missing the noise, not the vibes. However never say never!

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NHSH
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by NHSH » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:49 am

bigtwinthing wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:35 pm
I read this thread all over again, i still lean almost the same but tighter on the left and i lean down more on the left. Turning right i sit up more, don't know why though!!.
There is an explanation to this based on several factors in combination, here are few facts to look at:

1. Your throttle is on your right hand side, makes it easier to control with less weight on this hand while leaning.
2. Most people are right handed (no offence), quite naturally makes it easier to hang off the stronger hand while turning.
3. Could be also road conditions or the side of tighter turns, but from my own experience living in Australia, it didn't changed this.

I only managed to overcome this 100% when I got to ride a track day where you can focus on your faults and correct them.

On a previous comments from 8541Hawk, I have been using trail breaking for many years as well, before I even knew what that meant, I agree completely that it is safer once you get the hold of it, you do get much better feedback and feel from the front brakes with the effect of planting the wheel into the road, including if you need a bit more braking mid turn, braking in the turn can get you in trouble pretty quickly if you need it mid turn, the bike will shoot you out of the turn.
You never see a motorcycle parked in front of a psychiatrists for psycho therapy. All I need is cycle therapy

kawa
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by kawa » Sat May 18, 2019 9:11 pm

I have always used the rear brake to steady my bike/scrub off speed, in a corner but lately I have been using an old technique called trail braking and I used this on my old VFR 400 RR when I was very used to the bike.
I have recently been using trail braking(front end medium braking pressure up to the turning point of a bend)on the VTR with a little nerves but it all seem good so far:)

kawa
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by kawa » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:29 pm

I used to own a bike school in the 90`s and obviously never taught this trail braking but unconsciously i use it to great effect.
The technique I use is as follows:
I study the bend and first select a gear (blip to match engine revs) where the bike will be responsive and happy to rev!
I then apply the front brake quiet firm at first and then trail off before steadily releasing the brake and turning in mid bend(almost flopping in to the bend):)

kawa
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by kawa » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:38 pm

The front brake is the most aggressive and 75% effective if used correctly.
The rear brake is obviously 25% effective and used to control the bike during slow or tight maneuvers as it does not effect steering or make the front dip:)
I apply my front brakes to stop and then gradually release and apply my rear brake until I come to a controlled stop the rear brake should be used to stabilize the stopping process :angel:

PS I am no carl fogarty but I can ride:)

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