Acct's

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Ace VenTRa
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Acct's

Post by Ace VenTRa »

After a bit of deliberating I've decided that when it comes to the ACCT's we may have been missing a simple and yet critical point. Based on Rogers post regarding bad cct's I took apart my old ones only to find 2 perfectly good torsion springs of thin diameter wire. It's a fairly simple construction that should be generally reliable though it seems not to be in some cases. It just so happens that there are a few people near me that are fairly knowledgeable when it comes to fatigue analysis so I sent off my springs to to a private engineer and to a spring manufacturer.

My goal is this..put the acct's back in the bike with an improved spring that has been given a transition coating and cryogenic treatment so it will never fail again and I'll never have to adjust it again.

By why not just use a set of mcct's?

Because in the type I've used I've found that they are not particularly well thought out or well made and have let me down twice already in two different ways.

Anyway, if anyone has broken or good used oem acct's and you want to help the project along a bit, send me a pm for an address I'd love to have your old ones for analysis and development. I will return two new springs at cost to anyone that donates an old set.

Cheers

AV
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popkat
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Re: Acct's

Post by popkat »

And to be sure of no engine failure stopper mod them rather than just trust the springs




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2014 CRMC Post classic Superbike champion.
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tony.mon
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Re: Acct's

Post by tony.mon »

It's been done before, Greenwood, I think it was, that made springs. But lots of owners aren't that confident to pull their ccts apart, and not mess up their cam timing.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
Ace VenTRa
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Re: Acct's

Post by Ace VenTRa »

I've heard...but this is for sure an easy peasy mod. No harder than an MCCT. As for the stopper mod, I understand that it won't let the adjuster back out, but will it allow the stopper to move forward? By design it seems to prevent the adjuster from turning; or did I miss something? I intend on adding a tutorial, that usually helps.

AV
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MacV2
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Re: Acct's

Post by MacV2 »

Ace VenTRa wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:15 am I've heard...but this is for sure an easy peasy mod. No harder than an MCCT. As for the stopper mod, I understand that it won't let the adjuster back out, but will it allow the stopper to move forward? By design it seems to prevent the adjuster from turning; or did I miss something? I intend on adding a tutorial, that usually helps.

AV
No harder than fitting a set of MCCT's... Don't think so... Change spring, all the strip down to get to CCT, remove CCT, strip CCT replace spring, replace CCT with new spring...Repeat with front cly.

Now whilst your stripping the CCT to fit the spring, I'll have the the first CCT replaced & have already moved on to the second one & will prbably have the second one fitted buy the time you have finished the first one...possibly.

Now sorry but unless your having 100's of these springs done the price will be quite high, unless you can get the price down to far less than a set of MCCT's I think you will be wasting your time & money...

As has been said a lot of people baulk at the idea of doing a CCT change themselves... Making it more difficult by including stripping the CCT down as well... Sorry I dont think so... But hey I've been wrong before, prove me worng on this one...

Finaly will you give a personal guarantee to cover any failiures of these improved springs ?
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
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AMCQ46
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Re: Acct's

Post by AMCQ46 »

The stopper. Mod doesn't prevent the CCT going further out, it only limits its inward travel to a preset position which won't let the chain go so loose it will jump a tooth.
The only pain in the butt is that you need to measure and cut the stopper specifically to suit each Cylinder on each bike, as they are all different.
AMcQ
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sirch345
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Re: Acct's

Post by sirch345 »

Ace VenTRa wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:15 am I've heard...but this is for sure an easy peasy mod. No harder than an MCCT. As for the stopper mod, I understand that it won't let the adjuster back out, but will it allow the stopper to move forward? By design it seems to prevent the adjuster from turning; or did I miss something? I intend on adding a tutorial, that usually helps.

AV
Just to add to what Al (AMcQ46) has already pointed out.
The "Stopper Mod" does nothing in the sense of stopping the OEM CCT from operating as Mr Honda intended. The modification only stops the CCT plunger from retracting enough for the cam chain to jump the cam sprockets if/when a OEM CCT spring fails (breaks).

Getting back to your first post regarding replacement CCT springs.
An OEM CCT has had it's spring pre-loaded on assembly. The problem you have here is you'll need to workout how much pre-tension is required when fitting your new springs, even more difficult with springs that are designed differently, either in the manufacturing process, and/or different materials used.

Some food for thought. Good luck in what you are trying to achieve,

Chris.
MK_WF
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Re: Acct's

Post by MK_WF »

One of the German specialists (Higgins) sells them plug & play :

https://web.archive.org/web/20200301004 ... 1389575334

A majority of the vtr1000.de members use them and it's one of the top recommendations there.
Bye
Martin
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popkat
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Re: Acct's

Post by popkat »

MK_WF wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:19 pm One of the German specialists (Higgins) sells them plug & play :

https://web.archive.org/web/20200301004 ... 1389575334

A majority of the vtr1000.de members use them and it's one of the top recommendations there.


Looks like a ratchet type tensioner, similar are used on many bikes. They can't back out as they work on small ramps, a common issue with them is when they are taking up slack the engine can rattle if it doesn't go all the way, it will click over eventually or there's a way you can make it go :shh: , it's not a big issue though. Triumph used them and then dropped them in favour of a type that uses oil pressure, Yamaha used them a fair bit too. The good thing is no chance of them failing, they don't work like a standard VTR tensioner, more like a manual one that takes the slack up for you.
As manual tensioners hardly ever need adjusting it may seem a little pointless as looks like they are quite expensive. Same process for fitting as Manual tensioners.




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2014 CRMC Post classic Superbike champion.
2014 CRMC Post classic senior production champion. On a Suzuki Katana 1100
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Ace VenTRa
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Re: Acct's

Post by Ace VenTRa »

Literally, it takes 30 seconds to remove the spring and another 30 to install it. So, if 1 minute longer than installing an mcct is too much then I really have no answer for that person.

As for the guarantee...I suppose I'll offer the same as Honda, Kreiger, and APE....which is precisely nothing.

As for cost, it's really not that bad ($50 per pair so far) so I don't know why you might think that machining a job lot of manuals might be cheaper, or somehow cheaper than an engine rebuild.

I get it, it seems out there, but realistically it is way better than the option of a broken spring or a mis-adjusted manual tensoner (with which you can't verify tension, or lack thereof anyway). I'd refer to Rogers post on the tensioners but I think you all have probably read it. Suffice to say it is the reason I concluded that a better spring is the way to go.

Don't worry, no one will force you to use my mod but I will do so happily and report back asap with either good or bad results.

AV
Ace VenTRa
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Re: Acct's

Post by Ace VenTRa »

I had a gander at the Higgins...It is a new oem honda unit with...wait for it...an improved spring design. But at 270 euro I think I'll pass.

AV
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sirch345
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Re: Acct's

Post by sirch345 »

Ace VenTRa wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:28 pm Literally, it takes 30 seconds to remove the spring and another 30 to install it. So, if 1 minute longer than installing an mcct is too much then I really have no answer for that person.

AV
I think you missed this bit I posted :wink:
sirch345 wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:44 pm

Getting back to your first post regarding replacement CCT springs.
An OEM CCT has had it's spring pre-loaded on assembly. The problem you have here is you'll need to workout how much pre-tension is required when fitting your new springs, even more difficult with springs that are designed differently, either in the manufacturing process, and/or different materials used.

Some food for thought. Good luck in what you are trying to achieve,

Chris.
Chris.
Ace VenTRa
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Re: Acct's

Post by Ace VenTRa »

Woops, forgot to respond to that bit.

Preload is a cinch:


Install the spring
Re-install circlip
wind wind in the adjuster
Insert locking key
Install into bike
Release key and verify that everything is as it should be

If you're worried about spring tension on the new spring vs old...

The spring is a standard silicon carbon (music wire) torsion spring with closed coils. The issue appears to be the heat treat process after it's manufactured which effects the last coil which bends inward at 90 degrees to make a retaining arm. At that bend where the wire is most stressed, it needs to be stress relieved properly so as not to break. You can go about this in a few ways...

Shot peen
Cryo Treatment
Transition coating
All 3 above

This can be done to either a completely new wire or to used springs that have been examined at that known failure point. If the concern is having either too much or too little tension with new wire, the tension is determined by the type of wire the number of coils and how they are wound. The spring manufacturers I consulted do just such a thing on a regular basis by simply copying a sample and controlling quality. It's a fairly simple affair.

If you're curious about cryo, or doubtful.... https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi ... tations_mu



Also, I checked the part number for the Higgins unit and I need to clarify, it is an oem honda unit but not from the vtr, rather a CBR F3. If anyone wants a higgins you can buy a used one on ebay for about 40$ by purchasing a used CBR600F3 tensioner. That'll save a few quid.

AV
eamonn
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Re: Acct's

Post by eamonn »

yaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnn.
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MacV2
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Re: Acct's

Post by MacV2 »

eamonn wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:41 am yaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnn.
:lol: :lol:
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
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