buggered starter and tight manual ccts

[Geordie]

Hello folks .. just enquiring as to current up to date thinking on this issue. After 7000 miles post fitting of manual ccts of no problems other than a gradually weakening starter motor the bike almost went on fire today when I tried to start it. Ha .. basically the rubber boot over the terminal bolt. Ive read plenty on here about this and ive decided that the way to go is to revert back to auto ccts and fit a new starter. My battery is brand new and in good shape as is everything else electrical. I did follow the procedure on here explicitly when fitting the manuals and started by locking the autos and setting the distance the same on the manuals .. then trying to listen for these screaches or slappings or whinings to determine whether tighten or slacken .. lol .. I did after a few trips and much difficulty in starting from hot to slacken them about a full turn. A further slacken of a flat after that and tjings seemed fine even hot starts. I do wonder now though that it is just simply not possible to get the setting of the manuals correct by listening for these noises .. a turn of a flat or sixty degrees might just be too much for all us amateurs to know. My bike has 37k miles now and has always ran fine but im thinking a move back to new auto ccts as honda intended is perhaps the thing to do. Id also like to fit an uprated starter if possible .. does anybody know of any that fit that are more up to the job ? .. my bike is a 97 fv ..
And your up to date thoughts on the whole issue would be good to hear folks.
Many thanks

Geordie

[Watty]

Hello folks .. just enquiring as to current up to date thinking on this issue. After 7000 miles post fitting of manual ccts of no problems other than a gradually weakening starter motor the bike almost went on fire today when I tried to start it. Ha .. basically the rubber boot over the terminal bolt. Ive read plenty on here about this and ive decided that the way to go is to revert back to auto ccts and fit a new starter. My battery is brand new and in good shape as is everything else electrical. I did follow the procedure on here explicitly when fitting the manuals and started by locking the autos and setting the distance the same on the manuals .. then trying to listen for these screaches or slappings or whinings to determine whether tighten or slacken .. lol .. I did after a few trips and much difficulty in starting from hot to slacken them about a full turn. A further slacken of a flat after that and tjings seemed fine even hot starts. I do wonder now though that it is just simply not possible to get the setting of the manuals correct by listening for these noises .. a turn of a flat or sixty degrees might just be too much for all us amateurs to know. My bike has 37k miles now and has always ran fine but im thinking a move back to new auto ccts as honda intended is perhaps the thing to do. Id also like to fit an uprated starter if possible .. does anybody know of any that fit that are more up to the job ? .. my bike is a 97 fv ..
And your up to date thoughts on the whole issue would be good to hear folks.
Many thanks

Geordie

There is nowhere in the how to guide on fitting of mcct's that mentions listening for screeches etc It's a simple 5-7mm of free play in the chain measured between the cam pulleys . Not sure where that info has come from mate? I followed the guide to the letter and have had absolutely no problems!

[Stevo Kifaru]

Screeches sounds like the starter motor to me, not ccts

[Geordie]

Cheers Watty .. yes I know .. but you've kind of helped make my point to a degree .. 5 to 7 mm .. I suspect its just a bit too ball park .. bit too much guess work to get right without having strain gauges measuring forces at differing temperatures etc. Yes I know im over thinking it lol ..
Do the new auto ccts contain uprated or improved springs internals etc that are better than the originals ??
Cheers
George

[Watty]

Cheers Watty .. yes I know .. but you've kind of helped make my point to a degree .. 5 to 7 mm .. I suspect its just a bit too ball park .. bit too much guess work to get right without having strain gauges measuring forces at differing temperatures etc. Yes I know im over thinking it lol ..
Do the new auto ccts contain uprated or improved springs internals etc that are better than the originals ??
Cheers
George

No! All autos are are renowned for failing , it's like playing Russian roulette. If you're concerned about tension mate fit autos and do stopper mod

[Geordie]

Just to be clear .. I adjusted the ccts 4000 miles ago last time by slackening until I thought I heard more of a rasping tone and kinda left them at that. I've never heard screeching sounds and tbh the noises didnt differ much at all .. its just too imprecise a method I think .. there was always about six mill of movement in the chain between the pulleys no matter what the setting I left the manuals at unless very very slack or very very tight .. so it covers too much a range really.. I just hope we arent inadvertently causing excess wear to our camshaft bearings by having these manuals too tight ..
Just my thoughts guys .. each to their own.
Geordie

[AMCQ46]

Screeches sounds like the starter motor to me, not ccts

No it's tight CCTs when there is no oil in the cam bearings at start up as the tension is too high forcing petal to metal contact.. It will also make the engine harder to turn over due to all the extra friction.


5 to 7 mm free play is fairly precise, it will be less than 1/2 a turn on the CCT. If in doubt you should set by the chain slack, setting by ear is a skill for people as experienced (and deaf) as tony mon.


If you fit autos remember to do the stopper mod, then it's all good

[Watty]

Just to be clear .. I adjusted the ccts 4000 miles ago last time by slackening until I thought I heard more of a rasping tone and kinda left them at that. I've never heard screeching sounds and tbh the noises didnt differ much at all .. its just too imprecise a method I think .. there was always about six mill of movement in the chain between the pulleys no matter what the setting I left the manuals at unless very very slack or very very tight .. so it covers too much a range really.. I just hope we arent inadvertently causing excess wear to our camshaft bearings by having these manuals too tight ..
Just my thoughts guys .. each to their own.
Geordie

There have been a large amount of mcct's fitted mate covering high mileages with no problems! I know which I prefer to take my chance with and it ain't autos , but as you say, each to their own

[Stevo Kifaru]

Screeches sounds like the starter motor to me, not ccts

No it's tight CCTs when there is no oil in the cam bearings at start up as the tension is too high forcing petal to metal contact.. It will also make the engine harder to turn over due to all the extra friction.

Yes, sorry I mis-read the post. I've had 3 starter motors go now & that screech as it starts to fail is a sound I've come to know & dread

[tony.mon]

As the boy scouts say, follow the guide and you'll be alright.
The smoke and sometimes flames form the rubber boot is where the main starter motor cable flexes as it is clamped onto the starter motor.
This causes some of the strands in the cable to fail, and once a few have gone the remaining ones can't cope with the load, and produce a lot of heat when you try to operate the starter.
I'd suggest you need to replace that cable, form solenoid to motor, then see if anything else is causing a problem.
There's simply no point trying to change any other part until you have done so.

If you want a quick ans easy test, piggy-back a length of cooker cable (30 amp) alonside the cable and secure it properly both ends.- it's not enough on it's own but it will help make up for the deficiencies in the cable.

Watch out, though- it can get hot very quickly.

You should find that the motor spins up easily.

Re the cct tension- you're on a red herring here- although it's possible to overtighten the cct's to the point where the motor struggles to turn over, you can easily check by slackening them off two flats and see if it turns over any easier- if not put them back to where they were.

[Geordie]

Yes .. agree with all the logic here .. I would say if your starter motor burns out and you have manual ccts id vet your tension setting is too much .. think of the damage you could be causing to the bearings by having them too tight .. a weak starter is a fairly sure sign in my book .. I think I do the stopper mod on a new set of autos and get a fresh starter and cable like suggested .. its only just burned once today never before has it been evident although could have been being quietly overloaded last dozens of times.
My point is really a warning to folks to make sure your ccts are not too tight ..
Any other starter motors that fit and have more kick ??
Cheers boys
Geordie

[Stevo Kifaru]

http://www.psep.biz/store/honda_motorcy ... #AHSMU0095

Starter motors from various Hondas fit, don't fork out over the odds for one because it came from a VTR, CBR6s & 9RRs do too

[adewhitmarsh]

I sell manual ccts (on here & eBay) & have fitted them & as long as you follow the fitting instructions to the letter ie leave 5-7mm of free play on the cam chain then no problems . haven't heard of anybody adjusting manuals on a regular basis.

[VTRDark]

its just too imprecise a method I think ..

Yep doing them up by feel and sound alone is not for the inexperienced. This is why I advice removing both cam covers and measuring the slack.
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 31&t=28583

Check that starter cable out. Make sure you grease up the connection at the starter on replacement.

If you want a quick ans easy test, piggy-back a length of cooker cable (30 amp) alonside the cable and secure it properly both ends.- it's not enough on it's own but it will help make up for the deficiencies in the cable.

Watch out, though- it can get hot very quickly.

And then put a couple of rashers on the cam covers and a sausage or two will fit nicely in the V.

(:-})

[Furrybiker]

Not sure if this is totally relevant but I had my manual ccts fitted by a garage. The bike started fine but on the way home i was stuck in traffic and there was a screeching noise from the engine. I got home and slackened the bolts by a flat, then ran the engine until it got really hot, no screech. Since then thousands of miles covered with no problems.

Hardly scientific but proves it doesn't need to be exact.