Why do VTR carbs go rich?

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8541Hawk
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Why do VTR carbs go rich?

Post by 8541Hawk »

As I am getting ready to rejet my bike for the full exhaust I installed I though it would be a good time to share a bit more info on the .....what the hell is going on thoughts many have when starting to mod a VTR.

I say this as counter to "logic" or experience with other bikes VTRs have this odd habit of going rich when you improve flow. This is counter intuitive to most folks but there is a logical reason :wink:

Before I get into what I see going on I'll give you a bit of my back ground.
While I have been messing with bikes for longer than I want to admit, back when I did go to work everyday I was a vacuum tech.
No not the rug suckers but large chambers and helium mass spectrometers were my specialties and work at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

So I have the unfair advantage of actually knowing how things work inside CV carbs.

So with that lets tackle the issue of why they go rich when other carbs would go lean.
This has to do with the size of the carb.
Being so much larger than a "standard" carb does change the rules.

Basically you are dealing deal flow "states"
In order to keep this short and readable we will only deal with 2 for now.

The first is "turbulent" flow.
It is easier to picture it as water flowing, this type of flow is just like the name sounds.
It is moving but rolling and twisting around.

Then you have "laminar" flow.
This is when everything lines up and flows in a smooth straight line.
Again like water, it is the spot in the stream where everything straightens out and the water flows smooth and fast as the speed increases exponentially when this state is reached.

Then just to keep things interesting, there are "transitional" states between these 2 flow rates.-

So we together so far :biggrin

The next bit that we have to understand is that "vacuum" (or partial pressure) does not "pull" anything. It is the positive pressure on the otherside pushing that causes things to move,

With those two concepts, lets look at the issue once again.

What is happening is these carbs are so large that they live in the "turbulent" flow state.
When you start cleaning things up in the airbox, replacing the stacks and even as in my case add a good full exhaust then you start hitting laminar flow through the carbs.

Common thinking with this info would be and is, more air flowing through the carbs then I need bigger jets to flow more fuel to keep up......
On bikes with small carbs, yes as they are already in laminar flow.

On this set up things are a bit more tricky......lol
What I see happening is the mods I listed start bringing things into the "laminar" flow range.
With one more concept we'll take a look at this.
The last bit of the puzzle is to keep in mind the pressure increase is the square of the speed increase.

With all that out of the way time to figure this out.
We are not to worried about the amount of flow through the carb venturi but the effect of this flow on the carb circuits.
In the stock set up, again with turbulent flow, the vacuum signals are also turbulent and while everything does flow and work, it is not at its optimum rate.
To compensate, you just run a little larger jet. Not optimal but acceptable for most situations.

Now the OCMD folks get in there and mod stuff and get that laminar flow....what does that do to the carb circuits?
They also are now getting a good, strong vacuum signal. They respond by now flowing at their optimal rate.
What does this do...... you go rich and need to lean out to compensate.


There in also lies the problem with tuning for mods. You really don't know how much you have improved things.
Remember I said there are transitional states between the different types of flow rates..... that is what we are really dealing with.
So there is no set formula once you start modifying, it all depends on the flow rates you achieve and even more than stock, each bike will be different.

Yes there is also a point where you will start going lean and need to jet up if you do enough mods but that is usually only for engines with pistons and cams that I have tuned.

Hope this helps some and yes I was bored today.....lol

And yes I am getting old and did mess up the thread title at first if anyone is wondering....lol
Last edited by 8541Hawk on Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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GoSlow
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Re: Why do VTR carbs go rich?

Post by GoSlow »

That's really quite cool information, I love learnong how/why tthings occur like that... Guess that goes to show that the storm more than most bikes needs time to set up the fuelling rather than just drop some different jets in :D
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lloydie
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Re: Why do VTR carbs go rich?

Post by lloydie »

8541Hawk wrote: I say this as counter to "logic" or experience with other bikes VTRs have this odd habit of going (RICH )when you improve flow. This is counter intuitive to most folks but there is a logical reason :wink:
Fixed it :-)


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darkember
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Re: Why do VTR carbs go rich?

Post by darkember »

It's good to have boffins on the site. Nice write-up :thumbup:
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VTRDark
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Re: Why do VTR carbs go rich?

Post by VTRDark »

Yep having the biggest production carbs made for any bike makes all the difference. They can be compared more towards CV carbs on a car more than another motorbike. Nice write up. Can you stick a link to this in the first post of your carb set up thread please :thumbup:
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 31&t=28922

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8541Hawk
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Re: Why do VTR carbs go rich?

Post by 8541Hawk »

lloydie wrote:
8541Hawk wrote: I say this as counter to "logic" or experience with other bikes VTRs have this odd habit of going (RICH )when you improve flow. This is counter intuitive to most folks but there is a logical reason :wink:
Fixed it :-)


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Thanks for the catch.... did that a couple times the first time through..... :oops: :lol: :lol:
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8541Hawk
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Re: Why do VTR carbs go rich?

Post by 8541Hawk »

cybercarl wrote:Yep having the biggest production carbs made for any bike makes all the difference. They can be compared more towards CV carbs on a car more than another motorbike. Nice write up. Can you stick a link to this in the first post of your carb set up thread please :thumbup:
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 31&t=28922

(:-})
Yes there are time when size really does matter..... 8O :lol:
It also proves the old tuning adage: The larger the CV carb, the harder it is to get it right.

The only reason I have gotten so deep into what the hell is going on is that even with my background these carbs have baffled me more than once.
So I have gone down the wrong path (at least for me) more than once,

About all I can add right now is don't get frustrated when tuning for mods, it will take a few tries :beer:

And I added a link to the other thread :thumbup:
Loud pipes don't save lives, knowing how to ride your bike will save your life.
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