Engine break in

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8541Hawk
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Engine break in

Post by 8541Hawk »

So are you in the "run it hard" camp or the "take it easy at first" camp on how to break in a new engine?

Personally I'm in the "run it hard" camp. This doesn't mean abuse the engine but there is no putt putting around.
Here is a good read on why some believe twisting the throttle is actually a good thing:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
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VTRDark
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Re: Engine break in

Post by VTRDark »

I'm also in the run it in hard camp. Engines I feel adapt to the way they are worked. The perfect example is a car that is shared with somone else. Get in that car and drive it after say the wife, and it may feel a little sluggish and laboured, choked up unless she's driven it hard. I use the wife as an example and it maybe a little sexist but generally woman are more hesistant and don't drive vehicles the same way men do. Even insurance companies favour them because of this so yes it's sexist and making a genralisation but there must be something in it if insurance say's so :crazy: My point being you can notice the differance in how the engine responds if it's been driven for a while like driving miss daisy. The engine if run in hard may not last as long as one gradually and softly run in but once run it in you will have more fun with it. So it becomes a variable over whether you want an engine for performance or longevity :thumbup:
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podman
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Re: Engine break in

Post by podman »

I tend to follow the engine builders or manufacturers instructions, they built it, from the materials they specified and choose, as they have done for decades. Personally I wouldn't follow some random unknowns advice from the interweb Vs a manufacturer such as Honda.

I think the general rule and one they all apply is dont over load it, dont over rev it and vary the revs, for that reason motorways etc are best avoided.
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Stephan
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Re: Engine break in

Post by Stephan »

Run it hard, bellow is my engine break in schedule. I just finally decided to use silkolene and 10W40 after break in. Engine seems fine :)

Between 500-2000km I was on whole day dyno tuning and did one full track day.

Image
Last edited by Stephan on Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Martinz
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Re: Engine break in

Post by Martinz »

When i used to work for an independent yamaha bsb team, the engine was run in on the dyno for 10 mins .That was it. Then full chat. But you need to remeber these engines were built for one weekend. Then pulled apart and rebuilt

Any engine ive ever rebuilt, for my profession or for my personal use, that wasnt a race engine, was built for longevity. And in that case was broken in slowly, then oli changed and clearances checked, then given a full blasting on the road/ track. Engines need time to adapt to themselfs. Going in full boar from the off on an engine you want to last for another 50,000 miles just isnt a good idea. This is my opinion. I used to rebuild engines day in day out and rarley ever had a problem. As far as im aware most of the engines are still going strong. HOWEVER. Some very respectable engine builders i know have different opinions.

I guess it all depends on the type of engine ( race , road, endurance, 2 stroke, flat 4 , v8 blah blah. ) and your requirements for said engine...
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E.Marquez
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Re: Engine break in

Post by E.Marquez »

podman wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:04 pm I tend to follow the engine builders or manufacturers instructions, they built it, from the materials they specified and choose, as they have done for decades. Personally I wouldn't follow some random unknowns advice from the interweb Vs a manufacturer such as Honda.

I think the general rule and one they all apply is dont over load it, dont over rev it and vary the revs, for that reason motorways etc are best avoided.
What do you think the manufactures needs and intent is when printing a owners manual for the no mechanical knowledge, no intent to perform after break in inspection, maintenance and no intent to pay attention what so ever to what should or should not be done during the critical first start and first 10 hours or so?
Do you think it is max performance and longevity? If so, I would disagree.
There need is to have the bike placed into service with as few warranty related issues possible and reasonable service life and performance while using the "recommended" break in procedures and long service intervals that were marketed for that model.
Getting the best ring seal is a distant last place for them vs getting the average rider a bike in service that has a long warranty free, break down free service life
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8541Hawk
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Re: Engine break in

Post by 8541Hawk »

The one question I would ask the "easy break in" folks is , Have you ever seen what is done to a new motorcycle during its final QC?

It is strapped to a dyno or rolling road, warmed up and run to the limiter in every gear. Auto makers do the same thing though normally before the engine is installed.
So the whole "the factory says to take it easy for break in" is the exact opposite of what they do with a new engine. Why is that?
One theory is that the lawyers got involved. They figure if you are breaking in an engine, then it is a new bike that you haven't ridden. So instead of telling you to give it the beans, just like they do at the factory, they tell you to take it easy so you don't end up in the ditch. The whole take it easy is not for the engine but for the rider to get used to the bike. Imagine the law suits that would come from the factory telling folks they actually need to twist the throttle on a new bike.
"Why did you crash"? ....because the factory said I had to open it up and ride it hard......

The factory also says to leave the oil in for 600 miles or so, instead of the 20 miles or so when it needs to be changed out. Ever seen oil after the short initial run?
I know I wouldn't want that in my engine for the next 580 miles.

The reason for the break in, IMO is to get the rings to seal. Now what makes the ring seal to the cylinder wall isn't the spring force of the ring but through the gas pressure from combustion getting behind the ring and forcing it out.
So running it easy can lead to the rings to never get the full gas pressure needed behind the ring to fully seat it to the cylinder wall, there by never getting a full seal.

Though I do know this is another area where I don't fall into lock step with "conventional" wisdom but I do believe manufacturing processes have come a long ways and what used to be needed is not the same as what is happening now.
Though I guess the proof is in the pudding as they say so here is a bit of food for thought.
Here are the cylinder walls of a VTR engine with over 100K miles. Ridden hard from day one.....I know as I bought it knew and put those miles on myself.
With the heads pulled this is what was found:
Image

Image

Yes the cross hatching is gone but there is also no ridge at the top of the cylinder. When I say no ridge, I mean you can not even catch a fingernail on where it should be.

Here is the front piston, it does show some wear (and some of the scratches have been from sitting on the bench) you can also see the the rings were fully seated with no blow by marks

Image

So the whole "if you want it to last, take it easy" doesn't seem to have been the case here. Like I said, this engine was ridden hard from day 1.
Loud pipes don't save lives, knowing how to ride your bike will save your life.
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VTRDark
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Re: Engine break in

Post by VTRDark »

This is why this is such a fantastic thread topic to discuss. There has always been two schools of thought and there really isn't any clear definition.

Manufacturer's are running a business so their intention is to make money as well keep themesleves from getting into any legal quarrels so can't be fully trusted. That would be a bit like trusting a goverment, there are ulterior motives at hand. On the other hand where is the boundry between better performance and longevity. It's probably more important that the oil is changed at frequent intervals rather than how hard one pushes as well as using a good assembly lube on components for the initial start up.

I don't think going flat out redlining straight from the off is necessarilly a good idea but I do believe things can be gradually pushed furthur and furthur more so than what the Manufacturer say's, maybe redlining from time to time but not over an extensive period. My conclusion would be to use the Manufacturer's instructions as a basline but don't strictly stick to them and push a little harder along with the odd bursts up to the redline. It's not only the rings but there are all the other components that will be tight to begin with and need loosening up too.
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podman
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Re: Engine break in

Post by podman »

E.Marquez wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:18 pm
podman wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:04 pm I tend to follow the engine builders or manufacturers instructions, they built it, from the materials they specified and choose, as they have done for decades. Personally I wouldn't follow some random unknowns advice from the interweb Vs a manufacturer such as Honda.

I think the general rule and one they all apply is dont over load it, dont over rev it and vary the revs, for that reason motorways etc are best avoided.
What do you think the manufactures needs and intent is when printing a owners manual for the no mechanical knowledge, no intent to perform after break in inspection, maintenance and no intent to pay attention what so ever to what should or should not be done during the critical first start and first 10 hours or so?
Do you think it is max performance and longevity? If so, I would disagree.
There need is to have the bike placed into service with as few warranty related issues possible and reasonable service life and performance while using the "recommended" break in procedures and long service intervals that were marketed for that model.
Getting the best ring seal is a distant last place for them vs getting the average rider a bike in service that has a long warranty free, break down free service life
Am am very sorry for disagreeing with you..Its amazing so many of these bikes have lasted , what, nearly 20 years since first ill informed owners not following your advice ...I mean, what kind of imbecile doesn't book a dyno session on their new motorcycle after 300 miles?!

I will print out your helpful diagram , rip out that rubbish in all my owners manuals and place that wisely chart you provided in its place..


Image

Thanks ever so..
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fabiostar
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Re: Engine break in

Post by fabiostar »

i have generally given them an easy time for about 300 miles then change the oil and use as normal.. so im kinda in between both camps....

two strokes iv always been a bit more careful with.

from my yamaha days i used to fit pistons. give them 3 or 4 heat cycles then pull the barrels and remove any high spots on the skirts then go racing .
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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8541Hawk
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Re: Engine break in

Post by 8541Hawk »

Sorry to bring up a topic that causes such strife. That truly wasn't the intention.
I was hoping for a good discussion not us insulting each other and believe me I know how things can get out of hand very quickly.

I was just trying to go over why all the manuals say to baby a new engine while the factory runs the piss out of them. Or why do they say one thing but do the exact opposite?
Then there is the set up guy, when the bike was new.
Did he lightly roll on the throttle on the test ride or did he blast it up and down the block (and actually do you a favor in doing so or did he hurt the bike)

Just getting an engine to run for X amount of miles is different than having an engine that is going to make the most power.
Then I also hear about many issues with the cylinders going oval. In my experience building engines this is usually caused by uneven ring seating. Which leads to uneven pressure from the rings and an ovaled bore.

Then there is "what are we breaking in"? IMO its the rings, everything else doesn't require a "break in" the bearings are plain, needle and ball. None require break in.
You have transmission gears, also no break in.

So when you do that first oil change (which the factory says should be 600 miles) your flushing debris from the rings seating and whatever casting flash gets knocked off. This is because it is not practical to do a proper deburr of the cases in a mass production setting. Yes the cases are actually pretty nasty inside from a machinists point of view. I would estimate between 4-8 hrs of work to really get the cases nice inside. That is one of the big differences between mass produced and hand built.

Back to the original topic. While I believe you should run them hard don't take that as I'm saying to just go out and pin the throttle. That is not good either.
You need a place where you can roll in and out of if but it should see good sized throttle opening and also hard deceleration. The hard acceleration forces the rings into the walls to get a good seat and the decel causes high vacuum in the cylinder to suck all the debris from the rings seating out of the cylinder instead of it floating around in there.

You should also change the oil after the first 20 miles. There will be a lot of debris guaranteed from a brand new engine, though the factory says 600 miles. Should we believe the factory charts or what we see coming out of the drain plug?
On a rebuild it will not be as bad because you are not dealing with casting flash but how clogged is the filter with assembly lube?

I do have photographic proof that running an engine hard from new causes no damage. Yes I use good oil, though many say its silly and \or a waste of money to run high quality motorbike specific full synthetic oil (after break in) but again I ended up with nice clean bores with minimal wear and a transmission that looks almost new and still have usable steels and fibers (which are OEM to the bike, only replaced the springs) with over 100K miles.

The biggest thing here, at least to me, is how the factories run new engines. You can find many videos of a engine screaming on a dyno from new and yet you can never find a video of the factory running an new engine "easy" or anywhere near the stated limits in the manuals. Why is that?

Just because something was always done one way doesn't necessarily mean its the best especially if the technology involved in manufacturing has progressed. From the factory the bores are much smoother, the rings seat much faster and overall metallurgy has advanced.

So with all those changes, why still use the old school break in schedule?
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sirch345
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Re: Engine break in

Post by sirch345 »

It's good to hear other opinions on this, there's no need to be any falling out, after all we are all grown men here (and ladies if they join in this discussion of course) so no need for anyone to take offence from another members opinion I hope.

For me I have never been in a position to have a go at the hard run in option. Being old school I have always believed in what I had been told by people in the know who I trusted, or what I had read about, remember back in my youth and in my younger years there wasn't any Internet to rely on ( I can hear you youngsters saying to yourself now "what no Internet, heavens forbid I couldn't imagine my life without the net :lol: but that was how it was).

So for me it was the "take it easy at first" camp.

Now though with much more information on the two very different run-in options I would be very tempted to try the hard run-in method, as I can see the benefits from this as far as sealing the rings in the bores go.

Mike, I know I've said it before, but those bores on your 100K plus engine look amazing, and the condition of the pistons too :thumbup:

Chris.
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kenmoore
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Re: Engine break in

Post by kenmoore »

I find this topic very interesting.

I was in the motor industry for 42 years and started as an apprentice Truck Mechanic. I used to talk to the owners of these expensive machines about how they ran their motors in.

There was 2 schools of thought, one was follow the rules and the other was drive it hard from the get go.

Remember that these are expensive items and time off the road can cost huge $ and over a period of time I noticed that the trucks that were driven hard from the get go definitely performed better,and had less issues so I applied that school of thought to my motorcycles which to me were expensive items.

I didn't abuse any new bike engines but I didn't follow the manufacturers recommended procedures either and have never had a problem. Like Hawk says I dumped the oil and filter very early on, usually around 50Klms and in the early days of the 70s a lot of sh1t used to come out. Not so much these days as I guess that manufacturing processes and material used have improved out of sight.

I raced a lot of 2 strokes in motorcross and was always amused when a mate got a new bike and was diligently running it whilst I was happily thrashing mine. I always over service my machinery because I use it hard.

So a good mate and I picked up new bikes the same day, he ran his in by the book and I just rode mine hard as necessary and over a period of time we raced together a lot. He was a better rider than me but his bike was lethargic compared to mine and that gave him the shits no end. We ran the same gearing and jetting , serviced them the same as we used to help each other out due to lack of funds and he could never catch me in a straight line.

So one day I am at work and am talking to an Old timer who had done millions of miles in trucks and I asked him about his thoughts on running in new engines and this is what he said.

Engines are like bodies in so far as they have "Memory " I thought to myself that he was a kook. How could an engine have memory? He said that if you baby an engine it will be doughy, if you drive an engine, keep it in the maximum torque range right from the start that it will perform better over a longer period of time with less wear and therefore cost less to run and be more efficient. Heavy stuff for a young bloke.

Fast forward many bikes and a new career in the Car industry, first in Spare Parts, then as a Service Manager , then into vehicle sales and then Management and then ownership of a multi franchised dealership with my wife.

We became successful and in the late 80s and early 90s started getting the opportunity to visit vehicle manufacturing plants in Australia, USA and Korea as well as Japan.

I won't mention the brand of the first factory we visited but I was shocked to see numerous engines in test beds being revved to within an inch of their life before being fitted into vehicles. I was also chuckling to myself at the visions of my customers gingerly driving away in their new cars at delivery time , totally unaware that the engine in their new pride and joy had been thrashed like someone stole it and was running from the police.

Given the chance and if the relationship with my customer was right , when they asked me the question about how to run the car in I would always say "Don't baby the motor, give it some stick however, "Don't abuse It , more harm is done by labouring an engine than letting it rev " I used to explain to them what the old truck driver said to me ! " An engine runs most efficiently in its maximum torque range and if driven that way will perform better and last longer overall "

I know that times have changed, I know that materials have changed however I have kept the same methodology when first using an engine and that is to be sensible, don't labour it, drive it to maximum torque and slowly increase the load on it up until about 500klms, change the oil early on and then drive it as hard as you want.

So back to the memory angle, obviously having been in the industry for so long I drove a lot of trade ins and was always surprised at how some cars would seem to like to sit on one speed and had to be pushed to go faster where others would go effortlessly to another speed and am of the opinion that the Old Timer truck driver knew what he was talking about.

Baby an engine and it will be doughy, use and drive an engine and it will perform ! Why does this happen ?

Because you are sealing the rings !(And maybe they have memory like a human body has Muscle Memory ! An example of muscle memory is a golfer continually practicing their swing )

Just my 2 bobs worth on this much discussed topic . :wave

P.S sorry for the rant, everyone is entitled to an opinion !
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podman
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Re: Engine break in

Post by podman »

No falling out intended here, my(attempt at a) hint of sarcasm was maybe a bit too wide of the mark..its your engine, do as you see fit with it, we're all grown ups and have gained enough experience to make our judgments. :thumbup:
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Stephan
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Re: Engine break in

Post by Stephan »

Podman, please notice that posted chart is mine and I did it only for my needs, it is just illustrated answer to Hawk's topic.I am not telling anybody to follow. However, I would treat any new engine like that, but respect everybody with differrent opinion.
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