Roger Says...Wait he did?

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E.Marquez
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Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by E.Marquez » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:01 pm

Hundreds of posts relating what a well respected VTR expert Roger Ditchfield has opined about the ACCT, its likely mode of failure and causation of failure....

But i had never seen him post on the subject himself..so I went looking.. He has posted 126 times on this forum,,,I searched his posts for some Key words and not one mention of ACCT.
Figured the search missed it, so I read all 126 posts, still nothing, not a single word I could find about them.

So now what? DId I miss a post where he spoke about the cam chain tensioner?
Did he use a different account name at some time when he posted about them?
Was there a database scrub or data loss at some point where posts were lost?

I really just wanted to read what he had to say about them, as we say over on this side of the pond "From the horses mouth" vice the recounted "Roger said" recollections so often posted.

Roger Ditchfield if your reading this, thank you for all the experience you have brought to the VTR group, if you can take a moment to tells us why you think they fail, how they fail, and if your current recommendation is still the OEM ACCT ..If so, for all uses and riders? or another way, is there a application and use you think the ACCT is not the better choice.

Thanks
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8541Hawk
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by 8541Hawk » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:53 pm

Well my first reaction to this is wow, once again something I said seems to be twisted around.

We both know this post is because I made the statement "Now many say it is just a poor design which can fail at any time, to which I have to ask , why would someone like Roger D put them in all the VTR engines he built? Wouldn't he know if the design was faulty? Also if they are so prone to failure for no reason, why would he send his own son out on the track with them"?

Though I also gave some clues as to what is happening.

I no where said Roger said this or that. I just asked a question and the info I have been compiling has come from a few different sources.
Yes I have had e-mail conversations with Roger but I do feel those are private conversations and I do not and will not just post up what he has said.

As for posting what I did on the other forum, actually it was just trying to bring back some discussions and maybe activity on a forum that is all but dead.
Sorry.

Why I even bother after all the grief I have been given on the topic is I actually do believe that you can still cause damage and premature wear to your engine even after you install MCCTs if you don't address why the ACCTs have failed.
You know trying to help out your fellow riders.

I have learned my lesson and yes CCTs are a forbidden topic and I'll keep the info I have to myself and never mention them again , other than saying I'll have a set of manuals for sale soon as I am going back to the ACCTs on my current build.
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E.Marquez
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by E.Marquez » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:00 pm

8541Hawk wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:53 pm
Well my first reaction to this is wow, once again something I said seems to be twisted around.

We both know this post is because I made the statement
Actually No Mike its not about you :thumbup: Really Its about the hundreds of posts on this and the US site that cite Roger about ACCTs, and I cant find a single post from him talking about ACCTs
:clap:
So the questions are...
Did I miss a post where he spoke about the cam chain tensioner?
-Can you link me to one? that would help.

Did he use a different account name at some time when he posted about them?
-Can you give me the other account name? that would be a help.
Was there a database scrub or data loss at some point where posts were lost?
-Do you remember this happening? That would be a help..
You'll note NONE of that is about or referencing you :wave: Sorry you took it wrong,,it really is not anything negative, Im just trying to find what Roger said, unfiltered, Thanks
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kenmoore
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by kenmoore » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:31 am

I for one would love to know Rogers take on the ACCT !

I have manuals in my bike because of all the horror stories out there .

I would much rather have the ACCTs in situ however as so many bad reports were out there it was one of the first things I did. I often reflect on this and wonder how it is that so many tensioners have failed over a long period of time.

To a certain extent I regret not doing the stopper mod to the original tensioners and wonder if some of the information that I read earlier on wasn't propaganda for want of a better word.

I also wonder how many VTRs are still out there running originals with no problems! I have read posts of people getting big miles out of standard tensioners !

With so much invested in my bike I didn't and don't want to take a chance .

Maybe run a poll and find out !( If this hasn't already been done ) I would say that as most people on here are enthusiasts that the vast majority will have manuals because of the fear factor and no other reason like me!

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lloydie
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by lloydie » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:42 am

Still think the stopper mod is the best solution

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Wicky
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by Wicky » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:06 pm

"Maybe run a poll and find out !"

There's been a few

Image

I'd be surprised if in 97/98 when storms were raced that there was even an awareness of a widespread problem with CCTs as owners hadn't accrued sufficient milages for it to become apparent. (I bought my 97 VTR second-hand in 2001 with 6K on the clocks - and it didn't implode till 35k) And even then cases in early years of production would have been likely dealt with under warranty. After a couple or three years when bikes were out of warranty and then failing then it seems is when the 2003 petition was sent to Honda

Sept 2003 (started April 2003) Petetion to Honda re. CCT failures

https://web.archive.org/web/20030423083 ... letter.htm

Still it'll be intersting to hear when Roger became aware of problems with the CCTs and if when racing them they took any special precautions with them due to hard use on engines i.e replaced CCTs at a certain / greater frequency to forestall failure.
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E.Marquez
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by E.Marquez » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:16 pm

Wicky wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:06 pm

I'd be surprised if in 97/98 when storms were raced that there was even an awareness of a widespread problem with CCTs as owners hadn't accrued sufficient milages for it to become apparent. (I bought my 97 VTR second-hand in 2001 with 6K on the clocks - and it didn't implode till 35k) And even then cases in early years of production would have been likely dealt with under warranty. After a couple or three years when bikes were out of warranty and then failing then it seems is when the 2003 petition was sent to Honda
:clap:

That was my reasoning elsewhere in another thread as to why Roger perhaps was not all that concerned about them at the time.....So I went looking for what he did say.....and I found nothing 8O
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by cheekykev » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:47 pm

lloydie wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:42 am
Still think the stopper mod is the best solution Image
Totally agree, I went with the stopper mod, simply because at the end of the day I do believe that historically Mr Hondas design engineers know what they're doing far more than most of us, but again just because of the scares I decided to do it as a precaution.
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by KermitLeFrog » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:57 pm

My own take on this, gleaned from info on here and elsewhere and a personal analysis from an engineering point of view is that ACCTs are best for the engine. However, in certain circumstances the fronts are prone to corrosion stress cracking in the spring. Possibly due to lack of a constant oil bath. Something potentially common with bikes that are nearly 20 years old and not constantly used.

I read lots of anecdotes about other failures (rear cylinder, brand new ACCT etc..) but I can't find any solid data on this. My not constantly used 20 year old VTR with 26k miles still has the original ACCTs but with the stopper mod.
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uk13iker
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by uk13iker » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:57 pm

I have ACCTs on mine currently on 18k and I believe the previous owner changed them at 10-12k. I will be replacing them again soon with the stopper mod.


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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by Stratman » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:13 pm

I had 35,000 miles on mine and thought that those moaning about the ACCTs must be somehow deluded. Then pop. No warning, nothing.

So manuals were fitted and IMHO not only do I get peace of mind, there is a little difference in the way the bike reacts. That was 8 years ago and I have checked adjustment of them once and they were spot on, so quite why a an auto is ever needed is beyond me.
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by VTRDark » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:50 pm

As far as I'm aware Roger has never posted on this subject but all his modified engines have ACCT's and I believe this is because they are designed for racing and in a racing engine it's going to be rebuilt after so many miles anyway so what does it matter what type of CCT it has. It would be intresting to hear his point of view on it and like Kenmoore I kind of wish I had gone with the stopper for the reasons that cheekykev mentioned. If I was to do it again then stopper would be my choice. Saying that I have never had any issues with manuals.
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by sirch345 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:06 pm

Erik, may be Roger wishes to keep his opinions to himself on this subject, that's why you didn't find anything on them :)

I will say after my research into the standard ACCT's many years ago, finding out they do self adjust when riding the bike, there may well be a genuine reason why Mr Honda used ACCT on this bike.
The problem now is how much ACCT cost in the UK. Another reason why owners may prefer to go for manual CCT's rather than doing the Stopper Mod. The price for them in the USA still seems reasonable to me in comparison.

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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by Wicky » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:16 pm

There's no known short, medium or long term problem or negative consequence with manual CCTs AFAIK - so for me manuals is the obvious go-to solution. They do the same job as the OEM autos without the possibility* of imploding. Simples.

All praise the manual cam chain tensioner...

Image

PS I'm sure Krieger, Ade and our very own Bazza will agree :wink:

* if properly fitted. All Hail Tony's master workshop day classes / Carl's digital fitting guide - Plus all the adding to the knowledgebase, the can a camel pass through a finger tight bolt and other theological discussion and objective measurement that made it a home DIY mod for the masses.
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Re: Roger Says...Wait he did?

Post by podman » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:36 pm

The only negative with manuals is people over tightening them and causing further problems which according to a local dealer is something he see fairly often, from all manner of manufacturers/models of course.

For me, the stopper mod was the perect answer, I was chuffed Alistair and some of the other lads did the mod for me at a workshop meet last year.

I wouldnt be happy riding my Storm without the stopper mod or manuals fitted, does seem to be a real issue with these bikes.

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