Electrical help needed

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freeridenick
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Electrical help needed

Post by freeridenick »

I'm fitting a CBR 600 fuel pump but my loom has been chopped up to leave the bare minimum, so there are no lighting wires to use. The ignition is all wired in to the kill switch and I'm trying to work out which wire I can use as the permanent live.

I have the below wires coming off the kill switch. Am I right in thinking I should splice the pump into the green/yellow wire? It looks like I could use the black/white one too.
Green with white strip
Green with red strip (this is from memory so I might be wrong on this one)
Black
Black with white strip
Yellow with red strip

I'll probably earth it straight to the battery.
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Stephan
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by Stephan »

my electric water pump is controlled by engine stop switch. Fuel pump I plan to do it the same.

should be black and black/white wire according to manual, but please double check, I am not electrician :)

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popkat
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by popkat »

I wouldn't run it through the kill switch, that switch probably won't be rated to carry all the current, you'd be better off buying a separate switch for the fuel pump, one that can easily cope. Or you could run the CBR fuel pump relay, so basically that will be your switch, but then you need a signal from the coils to tell it to open and operate the pump. also it's something else to go wrong so not the best choice. A fuel pump switch on the bars clearly labelled is best, then if you end up off the bike anyone picking it up (as long as they have half a brain) can isolate the fuel pump.



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Stephan
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by Stephan »

I believe the pump is not feed through the switch, it is just giving the signal for on/off.
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freeridenick
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by freeridenick »

I was actually thinking it could be wired directly into the switch via a wire on the output side. The black and white one.

I've not got the fuel cut out relay but looking at the CBR wiring diagram that just switches the pump from the coils. The relay doesn't look like a starter type relay where there's a massive current isolated from the rest of the wiring. It looks more like an indicator relay, which I assume is basically a switch. My point being that the current is the same through the whole loom, bar the sections separated by a solenoid. Since the kill switch is basically the same as the ignition switch the whole load also goes through the kill switch, as nothing works when it's open.

So the pump would always be on, drawing whatever current it draws. I could see that as a problem if I left the bike unstarted as the pump would be working against the float valve, causing resistance and posible flooding, but that's not going to be the case.

This seems to be the way Roger describes fitting the fuel pump. I hate wiring diagrams, so what am I missing?
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Chris58
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by Chris58 »

If I were to wire in a fuel pump I would only want it on while the bike is running.. the best way would be to use a generic relay of the proper amperage rating and find a wire that only has power while running.
A relay doesn't draw to much power to operate. Just don't use a starter solenoid.. use one like in the pic

When terminal 85 and 86 get power(from bl/w wire from start switch or ignition module) and ground (to battery or frame), they will activate a coil and contact 30 and 87(wired as a switch on negitive wire on pump)
turning on your pump.

The pump would run as long as the switch is in the start position, I don't see any wires that only get power while running.. except for the coils, but I'm not sure if that would work because of the pulses they receive.
Maybe someone here knows if you can use a coil wire to operate a relay??
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Stephan
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by Stephan »

Pump has to run before engine, you will have problem to start otherwise. I have electric water pump connected directly to battery, but there is connection to engine stop switch wire to give signal to relay. It is the similar approach as method decribed by roger, who has the pump controlled by key on position, however not wired through relay. I just wanted to have independent control, but dont see the point for fuel pump.
There are more ways how to do, wire pump to rear light seems to be good and easy option.
tony.mon
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by tony.mon »

Stephan wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:32 pm fuel pump.
There are more ways how to do, wire pump to rear light seems to be good and easy option.
Before the switch, not after...
If you have the old 16 litre tank you'll have to modify the fuel tap.
Otherwise the negative pressure caused by the pump holds the tap shut.
As demonstrated many times by me on the way to a Storm meet some years back.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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Chris58
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by Chris58 »

Stephan wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:32 pm Pump has to run before engine, you will have problem to start otherwise. I have electric water pump connected directly to battery, but there is connection to engine stop switch wire to give signal to relay. It is the similar approach as method decribed by roger, who has the pump controlled by key on position, however not wired through relay. I just wanted to have independent control, but dont see the point for fuel pump.
There are more ways how to do, wire pump to rear light seems to be good and easy option.
Yeah I agree the relay isn't 100% nessasary, im not really sure what a fuel pump draws.. Just a good way to make sure the circuit isn't overloaded.

Out of curiosity, I googled the xl1000v wiring diagram, it uses ignition power and a relay spliced into the + and - of one of the coils controlling the negitive of the pump.

I may consider adding one to mine too, not really sure what the benefit is to it tho. Is there a known fueling problem with modified storms? Or does it just make the carbs work better ?
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Stephan
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by Stephan »

Chris58 wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:45 pm Is there a known fueling problem with modified storms? Or does it just make the carbs work better ?
good question. I never felt the need with stage1 and std airbox. But with lidless configuration, maybe there is not enough fuel under the constant load. Maybe, because last time I was on track, my setting was far from ideal.

I will try and see, expecting slightly better carbs operation, not miracles.
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freeridenick
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by freeridenick »

tony.mon wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:34 pm
Stephan wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:32 pm fuel pump.
There are more ways how to do, wire pump to rear light seems to be good and easy option.
Before the switch, not after...
If you have the old 16 litre tank you'll have to modify the fuel tap.
Otherwise the negative pressure caused by the pump holds the tap shut.
As demonstrated many times by me on the way to a Storm meet some years back.
The 'tap' is a nice billet one :D. It doesn't have a tap. It's basically just a mount for the filter and a fuel line.

The info from Roger talks about cutting out the diaphragm. Presumably to solve the problem you mention.
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freeridenick
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by freeridenick »

Chris58 wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:45 pm
Out of curiosity, I googled the xl1000v wiring diagram, it uses ignition power and a relay spliced into the + and - of one of the coils controlling the negitive of the pump.
Same as the CBR600 one I looked at by the sound of it. I assumed it's simply to stop flooding with the ignition on but the bike not running.

Speaking to Roger relays are also in place to cut fuel in a crash. The Storm doesn't have one because it's gravity and mechanically fed. With adding the fuel pump I'd need to add a tilt switch if I was racing but I'm not. I will probably add one though at some point.
Stephan wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:53 am
Chris58 wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:45 pm Is there a known fueling problem with modified storms? Or does it just make the carbs work better ?
good question. I never felt the need with stage1 and std airbox. But with lidless configuration, maybe there is not enough fuel under the constant load. Maybe, because last time I was on track, my setting was far from ideal.

I will try and see, expecting slightly better carbs operation, not miracles.
Talking to Roger he said they had problems with fuelling in some long corners with the standard fuel delivery, or something like that. It was a while ago. Which is why they added the pump. The early CBR one was used because it delivers the right amount of fuel. Later ones deliver too much. There will be others that are suitable but he stopped looking.
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Stephan
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by Stephan »

freeridenick wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:24 am Talking to Roger he said they had problems with fuelling in some long corners with the standard fuel delivery, or something like that. It was a while ago. Which is why they added the pump. The early CBR one was used because it delivers the right amount of fuel. Later ones deliver too much. There will be others that are suitable but he stopped looking.
I am going to use Facet 40171. It is suprising info that there are fuel pumps for carb bikes that are not suitable, in theory fuel delivery is controlled through float bowl, and pump helps to keep this level stable. Not arguing, theory sometimes doesn´t meet reality :)
tony.mon
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Re: Electrical help needed

Post by tony.mon »

When I looked into fuel pumps I found there were low pressure and high pressure types.
Looking at the design of the float needle in the carb bowl it would be easy for pressure to push the float open if there was much more pressure than gravity.

Re the std fuel tap, if you remove both diaphragms you would need to block the overflow spigot beneath, I think.
But it may be that removing just the smaller one would do the job, I haven't looked at the tap design since then so can't be sure.

It's just that the pump "sucking" the tap shut is more powerful when starting the motor than the vacuum trying to open it, I found.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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