Intake or ex cams

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VT1000r
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Intake or ex cams

Post by VT1000r »

Hi, I'm on a budget and was wondering if I should get webcams grind #189 intakes or exhausts. Which one is better.
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Chris58
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Chris58 »

Intakes are what you want on a budget and could work... but its hard to say if it will work out well, lots of R&D is put into each cam profile, and they are meant to be installed as a complete set.

Keep in mind that you will also need to buy the stiffer springs webcams offers, as well as new buckets/shims for the new cams to break into properly. the buckets are expensive... I just bought a full set.

Your old buckets may not look worn, but they are worn into your old cam. Once they've been worn into a lobe, there is no way to wear them into a new one without wearing out the new cam quickly

Really no matter how you slice it. There is not a good 'budget' option when it comes to cams on this bike.
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VT1000r
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by VT1000r »

Chris58 wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:52 pm Intakes are what you want on a budget and could work... but its hard to say if it will work out well, lots of R&D is put into each cam profile, and they are meant to be installed as a complete set.

Keep in mind that you will also need to buy the stiffer springs webcams offers, as well as new buckets/shims for the new cams to break into properly. the buckets are expensive... I just bought a full set.

Your old buckets may not look worn, but they are worn into your old cam. Once they've been worn into a lobe, there is no way to wear them into a new one without wearing out the new cam quickly

Really no matter how you slice it. There is not a good 'budget' option when it comes to cams on this bike.
That sucks I might look into it in the future in that case. Luckily I already got some high comp pistons coming so that should be enough modding for me for awhile.
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Chris58
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Chris58 »

The pistons will help :thumbup: Lightening the flywheel is also a great cheap mod if you havent already done that.

Much better throttle response, and quicker acceleration... but tends to increase engine braking a bit more
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by tony.mon »

Why would you replace just the intake or exhaust side?
It's like upgrading just one side of the two cans....I suppose you could but why would you?
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Swampy »

tony.mon wrote: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:44 pm Why would you replace just the intake or exhaust side?
It's like upgrading just one side of the two cans....I suppose you could but why would you?
I dont know if I got it right but looking at an MV Augusta brutale it appeared to have a butterfly on the loud muffler?..thinking if noise is ever an issue then modding one pipe could be a worthy experiment. I'm still arguing with myself over mufflers. Vtr is two into one into two. Two small or one big...not seeing any reason not to make a lower dummy fairing muffler like that horny angular ktm litre sportbike

I know right, who would mod a firestorm?
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Stephan
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Stephan »

Swampy wrote: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:11 pm
tony.mon wrote: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:44 pm Why would you replace just the intake or exhaust side?
It's like upgrading just one side of the two cans....I suppose you could but why would you?
I dont know if I got it right but looking at an MV Augusta brutale it appeared to have a butterfly on the loud muffler?..thinking if noise is ever an issue then modding one pipe could be a worthy experiment. I'm still arguing with myself over mufflers. Vtr is two into one into two. Two small or one big...not seeing any reason not to make a lower dummy fairing muffler like that horny angular ktm litre sportbike

I know right, who would mod a firestorm?
If you mod just intake cams, you will be limited with the output of exhaust cams, where is some limit. And this limit is likely closer to oem spec cams than webcam grind.

No direct comparison to exhaust, I think Tony used it for better illustration.
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by mik_str »

I'll play Devil's advocate. After having run a (full) set of Yoshimura Stage 1 cams (in which one got sacrificed due to an HRC ECU over-rev while strapped to a dyno), I then ran stock cams, before finding and trying Moriwaki Stage 1 cams. After these last two-set-ups, I wanted a set-up that was more low-end and mid oriented than the Moris but livelier than the OEM so I tried running Mori exhaust cams (249 duration, 10.1mm lift) in the intake position and stock exhaust cams. I enjoyed this set-up but wanted something a bit livelier yet. I got my hands back on my old Yosh cams and used the intake only (250 duration, 10.7mm lift) and ran the OEM exhaust (both timed at 104 and 107.5 degrees LC respectively, which generates 36 degrees of overlap). The end result is exactly what I was hoping for.

The stock exhaust cams are relatively aggressive (moreso than the intakes) and capable of flowing well at the engine speeds I use most (of, course, I am running a full Akra system which is heat wrapped to further help improve flow). I could produce more at top-end with more aggressive cams, but I seldom rev the bike above 7.5k, preferring to use the acceleration generated by riding the torque peak (which occurs at about 7 k). My current set-up uses more aggressive lift numbers (intake side) to generate quick acceleration and beefy torque at street speeds without generating a dip in the mid-range that a higher overlap configuration (ie. the formula for high top-end numbers) would produce.

So, a full set of cams may be right for you, but don't be too quick to discount running a more aggressive set of intakes only. It all depends on what you're after. As this thread illustrates, I tried numerous set-ups (over many years and kilometers of riding) and am very happy with what I am running now. FWIW, I still have a full set of Mori cams sitting in their original box (and that's where they are staying).
99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
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Chris58
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Chris58 »

I agree that only changing intakes can have a good advantage. In most cases I would think you are likely to end up with a mid range power increase with a bit more overlap than stock.

I just wouldn't recommend it to the OP because hes on a budget and it can get costly very quickly to get it done properly (as I have found out from installing stage 2 mega cycles)
VT1000r wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:50 am Hi, I'm on a budget and was wondering if I should get webcams grind #189 intakes or exhausts. Which one is better.
I think it may be worth bringing up that you can degree your stock cams to move the power a bit higher or lower in the rev range. Just file out the cam sprockets, and get a degree wheel.

Ive been doing lots of cam figuring lately, Here is some info to reference for anyone willing to experiment:

These are listed from most important to least. ICV has the most direct effect on performance, then IVO, EVC, EVO.

IVC (Intake valve Closing) - Anywhere from 30deg to 70deg ABDC. The later it closes the higher rpm your peak hp will be, air momentum keeps filling the cylinder ABDC at high rpms..But at low rpm some air will be pushed back through the intake valves lowering compression. high compression pistons can help with this.
Sooner closing will trap the charge, giving better compression at low to mid rpm, but you will lose out on peak hp.

IVO - Anywhere from 5deg to 25deg BTDC. If it opens early there is more time for cylinder filling and more overlap (more scavenging) for top end power, but at idle exhaust gases may be pushed into the intake (reversion) causing a lumpy idle. Late opening will give a nice idle and better low end performance.

EVC - Anywhere from 5deg to 25deg ATDC. Earlier closing will reduce overlap and give better mileage, but will not allow the engine to breathe. Late closing will give more overlap which can waste some fuel out the tail pipe but will allow exhaust velocity to scavenge a fresh charge in the intakes.

EVO - Anywhere from 30deg to 60deg BBDC. This happens on the power stroke, the sooner it opens compression is let out which leads to less torque, but this is what initiates the scavenge effect (good for peak power). late closing = longer compression = low end torque

Overlap - can typically be anywhere from 15deg to 60deg

Lobe Separation angle - The value of crankshaft degrees between the intake and exhaust at their highest points in relation to TDC. The tighter the LSA the more overlap and vise versa. LSA can be from around 100deg to 115deg. A 104-106 LSA is considered a lumpy idle top end number , 107-110 midrange power , 110 - 115 low end power.
There is a formula to figure this out once you've picked your degree values. if its not the LSA you were looking for, then adjust accordingly.

Keep in mind that when you change an opening time of a valve it will also change the closing time and vise versa, you can only change a stock cam so much... maybe a few degrees one way or the other. To get the best of both worlds, you need a new cam profile.

there is more to consider than just this, but that's a good start..


Cheers :beer:
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Stephan
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Stephan »

Agree with mikstr and have to correct myself. I thought webcam grind 189 is far more agressive, but see it has 252 deg duration.
I would try it, personally along with lowering the heads a little to get slightly more CR, and setting up new timing for all cams.
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by mik_str »

Like you Chris, I did a lot of reading and researching, and finally number crunching, before settling on all my previous set-ups. As you have surely deduced, power is more something you move around than create (within limits of course).

Overlap is a wonderful thing at high rpm but it comes at a price, weaker low-end and a hole in the mid-range. Duration, directly linked to/a determinant of the former, also opens the way to great flow at high rpm, but again at a cost to power in what I consider the real-world (street) rev range. My choice to stick with the stock EX cam was largely determined by a desire to keep overlap to a "reasonable" figure (ie. 36 degrees in my present case). On the intake side, the Yosh intake cam gives slightly more duration (5 degrees) but significantly more lift (0.8mm), giving significantly better breathing. I have it timed so the valves open relatively early, again, in the interest of quick response Also, as literature clearly demonstrates, high lift (relatively) short duration cams are the perfect recipe for broad torque and instantaneous throttle response, which is PRECISELY what I was chasing. Were I building a track bike, I would calibrate for top-end, but mine is a street bike.

Also, and FWIW, the cam timing is but one element in the building of a bike. In my case, the cam configuration works with a voluminous airbox with filter in lid, long billet Mori and HPower intake runners with custom X-wing diffusers, streamlined carb butterflies, matched intake tract, lightweight flywheel, HRC ignition, balanced crank, aluminum clutch plates, quieting gear removed, Dymag carbon rims, Braketech CMC front rotors, lighweight MMR rear rotor, 1/6 turn throttle tube, 520 chain with 15/41 gearing, DLC coated valve buckets, ceramic bearings, Ti and Al bolts throughout, ported and decked heads, long/high link pipes on Akra exhaust, and on and on). I can guarantee that no one riding my bike would be left wanting for response and acceleration, or jump off to exclaim "you really should not have kept the stock EX cams"... Again, I encourage everyone to build for YOUR needs
99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
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Chris58
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Chris58 »

mik_str wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:03 pm Like you Chris, I did a lot of reading and researching, and finally number crunching, before settling on all my previous set-ups. As you have surely deduced, power is more something you move around than create (within limits of course).

Overlap is a wonderful thing at high rpm but it comes at a price, weaker low-end and a hole in the mid-range. Duration, directly linked to/a determinant of the former, also opens the way to great flow at high rpm, but again at a cost to power in what I consider the real-world (street) rev range. My choice to stick with the stock EX cam was largely determined by a desire to keep overlap to a "reasonable" figure (ie. 36 degrees in my present case). On the intake side, the Yosh intake cam gives slightly more duration (5 degrees) but significantly more lift (0.8mm), giving significantly better breathing. I have it timed so the valves open relatively early, again, in the interest of quick response Also, as literature clearly demonstrates, high lift (relatively) short duration cams are the perfect recipe for broad torque and instantaneous throttle response, which is PRECISELY what I was chasing. Were I building a track bike, I would calibrate for top-end, but mine is a street bike.

Also, and FWIW, the cam timing is but one element in the building of a bike. In my case, the cam configuration works with a voluminous airbox with filter in lid, long billet Mori and HPower intake runners with custom X-wing diffusers, streamlined carb butterflies, matched intake tract, lightweight flywheel, HRC ignition, balanced crank, aluminum clutch plates, quieting gear removed, Dymag carbon rims, Braketech CMC front rotors, lighweight MMR rear rotor, 1/6 turn throttle tube, 520 chain with 15/41 gearing, DLC coated valve buckets, ceramic bearings, Ti and Al bolts throughout, ported and decked heads, long/high link pipes on Akra exhaust, and on and on). I can guarantee that no one riding my bike would be left wanting for response and acceleration, or jump off to exclaim "you really should not have kept the stock EX cams"... Again, I encourage everyone to build for YOUR needs
100% correct. I think the stock cams are actually pretty good for fun on the street... as well as stage 1

As you have pointed out in you post, there are many other factors to sort out before you can get the most out of upgraded cams...mainly to let them breathe!
Ive done most of what you have too,
gutted airbox with a filter in lid, ported and decked heads with OS flat intake valves, matched the ports, hindle exhaust with modified stock headers, light flywheel, ignitech box, light balanced crank, 99mm JE pistons, carrillo rods, meth injection etc.. most of this IMHO should be done before considering more radical cams..

I started building my bike for streetability... but ever since I found a hoard of stage 2 cams, rods, crank etc.. there's a little voice in my head that says "build a race bike :twisted: " Needless to say im building a race bike.

Micky, Im interested in how aluminum clutch plates preform. Im curious if they'd get worn fast, have you had them on for a while?
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by mik_str »

The plates I am running are called Hyperplates. They are hard anodized and cryogenically treated. Not sure how they`d hold up for drag racing or with a slipper clutch, but I've had them for many years now and never had a problem (am not a burnout/wheelie guy, however). Unfortunately, the company that made them went out of business many years ago so they are no longer available.
99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
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VT1000r
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by VT1000r »

Chris58 wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:17 am I agree that only changing intakes can have a good advantage. In most cases I would think you are likely to end up with a mid range power increase with a bit more overlap than stock.

I just wouldn't recommend it to the OP because hes on a budget and it can get costly very quickly to get it done properly (as I have found out from installing stage 2 mega cycles)
VT1000r wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:50 am Hi, I'm on a budget and was wondering if I should get webcams grind #189 intakes or exhausts. Which one is better.
I think it may be worth bringing up that you can degree your stock cams to move the power a bit higher or lower in the rev range. Just file out the cam sprockets, and get a degree wheel.

Ive been doing lots of cam figuring lately, Here is some info to reference for anyone willing to experiment:

These are listed from most important to least. ICV has the most direct effect on performance, then IVO, EVC, EVO.

IVC (Intake valve Closing) - Anywhere from 30deg to 70deg ABDC. The later it closes the higher rpm your peak hp will be, air momentum keeps filling the cylinder ABDC at high rpms..But at low rpm some air will be pushed back through the intake valves lowering compression. high compression pistons can help with this.
Sooner closing will trap the charge, giving better compression at low to mid rpm, but you will lose out on peak hp.

IVO - Anywhere from 5deg to 25deg BTDC. If it opens early there is more time for cylinder filling and more overlap (more scavenging) for top end power, but at idle exhaust gases may be pushed into the intake (reversion) causing a lumpy idle. Late opening will give a nice idle and better low end performance.

EVC - Anywhere from 5deg to 25deg ATDC. Earlier closing will reduce overlap and give better mileage, but will not allow the engine to breathe. Late closing will give more overlap which can waste some fuel out the tail pipe but will allow exhaust velocity to scavenge a fresh charge in the intakes.

EVO - Anywhere from 30deg to 60deg BBDC. This happens on the power stroke, the sooner it opens compression is let out which leads to less torque, but this is what initiates the scavenge effect (good for peak power). late closing = longer compression = low end torque

Overlap - can typically be anywhere from 15deg to 60deg

Lobe Separation angle - The value of crankshaft degrees between the intake and exhaust at their highest points in relation to TDC. The tighter the LSA the more overlap and vise versa. LSA can be from around 100deg to 115deg. A 104-106 LSA is considered a lumpy idle top end number , 107-110 midrange power , 110 - 115 low end power.
There is a formula to figure this out once you've picked your degree values. if its not the LSA you were looking for, then adjust accordingly.

Keep in mind that when you change an opening time of a valve it will also change the closing time and vise versa, you can only change a stock cam so much... maybe a few degrees one way or the other. To get the best of both worlds, you need a new cam profile.

there is more to consider than just this, but that's a good start..


Cheers :beer:
thanks for sharing that, that may be what I end up doing but what do you mean by file out the cam sprocket :wtf:
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Chris58
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Re: Intake or ex cams

Post by Chris58 »

VT1000r wrote: Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:29 am
Chris58 wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:17 am I agree that only changing intakes can have a good advantage. In most cases I would think you are likely to end up with a mid range power increase with a bit more overlap than stock.

I just wouldn't recommend it to the OP because hes on a budget and it can get costly very quickly to get it done properly (as I have found out from installing stage 2 mega cycles)
VT1000r wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:50 am Hi, I'm on a budget and was wondering if I should get webcams grind #189 intakes or exhausts. Which one is better.
I think it may be worth bringing up that you can degree your stock cams to move the power a bit higher or lower in the rev range. Just file out the cam sprockets, and get a degree wheel.

Ive been doing lots of cam figuring lately, Here is some info to reference for anyone willing to experiment:

These are listed from most important to least. ICV has the most direct effect on performance, then IVO, EVC, EVO.

IVC (Intake valve Closing) - Anywhere from 30deg to 70deg ABDC. The later it closes the higher rpm your peak hp will be, air momentum keeps filling the cylinder ABDC at high rpms..But at low rpm some air will be pushed back through the intake valves lowering compression. high compression pistons can help with this.
Sooner closing will trap the charge, giving better compression at low to mid rpm, but you will lose out on peak hp.

IVO - Anywhere from 5deg to 25deg BTDC. If it opens early there is more time for cylinder filling and more overlap (more scavenging) for top end power, but at idle exhaust gases may be pushed into the intake (reversion) causing a lumpy idle. Late opening will give a nice idle and better low end performance.

EVC - Anywhere from 5deg to 25deg ATDC. Earlier closing will reduce overlap and give better mileage, but will not allow the engine to breathe. Late closing will give more overlap which can waste some fuel out the tail pipe but will allow exhaust velocity to scavenge a fresh charge in the intakes.

EVO - Anywhere from 30deg to 60deg BBDC. This happens on the power stroke, the sooner it opens compression is let out which leads to less torque, but this is what initiates the scavenge effect (good for peak power). late closing = longer compression = low end torque

Overlap - can typically be anywhere from 15deg to 60deg

Lobe Separation angle - The value of crankshaft degrees between the intake and exhaust at their highest points in relation to TDC. The tighter the LSA the more overlap and vise versa. LSA can be from around 100deg to 115deg. A 104-106 LSA is considered a lumpy idle top end number , 107-110 midrange power , 110 - 115 low end power.
There is a formula to figure this out once you've picked your degree values. if its not the LSA you were looking for, then adjust accordingly.

Keep in mind that when you change an opening time of a valve it will also change the closing time and vise versa, you can only change a stock cam so much... maybe a few degrees one way or the other. To get the best of both worlds, you need a new cam profile.

there is more to consider than just this, but that's a good start..


Cheers :beer:
thanks for sharing that, that may be what I end up doing but what do you mean by file out the cam sprocket :wtf:
To degree your cams you need to be able to turn them in relation to the crank. If you were to move the cam one tooth on the chain, you would be way too far out of time.
Slotting the bolt holes allows the cam to be adjusted on the sprocket without having to jump an entire tooth.

To do this you will need to remove the cam sproket, then use a file or small die grinder to slot the bolt holes so that you can adjust the cam on the sprocket a few degrees each way.. This is ok to do on a storm, as the sprockets are not centered by the bolts, the bolts just lock it in position.

If you dont have experience with valve timing you will want to do some research before starting. It is a procedure that has to be done properly and with accuracy.
There are many online tutorials for different engines, the same principle applys to each engine.
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