ok guys, update.
tried new starter sol. still nothing.listed below is a previuos suggestion
quote:
tony.mon
Post subject: Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:31 am
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:46 pm
Posts: 392
Location: Norf Kent
One tip:
even if the connection to the starter motor bolt is in good condition, the actual lead can start to fray inside the cable about an inch from the motor end.
You may not be able to see it as the outer sheath isn't affected, but as you operate the starter it'll get pretty hot quite quickly if this is the case.
answer:from waht I can see the lead looks ok but , yes it did get hot quickly!
what now?
does any one have a spare starter lead or do I buy another starter motor?,that would be a new bayyery, new regulator, new soloniod........ I am running out of money and getting very frustrated, thats been about 4 weeks now !!
someone help please..
electrical problem ?? or is it?
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mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
You could check it by running an auxiliary piece of cable from the relay down to the starter motor terminal.
If you were to make up a lead using a length of cooker connection (30 amp) cable you should be able to test whether it makes a difference.
If it does, then it's the lead,
if it doesn't then it may be your starter motor.
Connect it alonside the current lead, and make sure that the terminations make a good connection.
You might be able to crimp a ring terminal on both ends, but I'd solder it as well as this gives less resistance to the connection.
As long as this is cleanly and firmly connected at the bolts both ends it should lessen the lead's resistance enough to check whether your lead is internally damaged.
Good luck!
If you were to make up a lead using a length of cooker connection (30 amp) cable you should be able to test whether it makes a difference.
If it does, then it's the lead,
if it doesn't then it may be your starter motor.
Connect it alonside the current lead, and make sure that the terminations make a good connection.
You might be able to crimp a ring terminal on both ends, but I'd solder it as well as this gives less resistance to the connection.
As long as this is cleanly and firmly connected at the bolts both ends it should lessen the lead's resistance enough to check whether your lead is internally damaged.
Good luck!
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
thx mate, I will try that nxt wk/end and let you know.
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
On re-reading my post, I didn't make what I meant perfectly clear:
When you make up the cooker lead use ALL phases of the wires including the earth spliced together.
This will carry enough current.
Don't just use the red wire the earth or the black one, they're not big enough on their own.
It'll make a big chunk of cable to get into a ring terminal, but any electrical wholesaler should be able to help. You can crimp a terminal on, which will do for a test, but it should really be soldered on-if you've got a big enough soldering iron.
When you make up the cooker lead use ALL phases of the wires including the earth spliced together.
This will carry enough current.
Don't just use the red wire the earth or the black one, they're not big enough on their own.
It'll make a big chunk of cable to get into a ring terminal, but any electrical wholesaler should be able to help. You can crimp a terminal on, which will do for a test, but it should really be soldered on-if you've got a big enough soldering iron.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
-
mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
Hi guys,
just an update as you's are the only one's really interested in whats happening with my bike (work colleges uh!)
ordered new starter lead (£30!!) see what happens with that first but keeping an eye on eBay for starter motor as after all you guys input it seems to be the fav' choice of fault..
let you know as soon as I can.
wish me luck (again)
just an update as you's are the only one's really interested in whats happening with my bike (work colleges uh!)
ordered new starter lead (£30!!) see what happens with that first but keeping an eye on eBay for starter motor as after all you guys input it seems to be the fav' choice of fault..
let you know as soon as I can.
wish me luck (again)
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money
-
bikerpiker
- Posts: 1823
- Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:59 pm
- Location: Ayrshire - Scotland .
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
How did you get on mate 
Did you buy a new lead ...any joy with the 2nd hand starter
Did you buy a new lead ...any joy with the 2nd hand starter
Stevie
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mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
No mate, still the same.Don't know what to try next?
Wish someone would come and help
Wish someone would come and help
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
Hang on, I've just re-read the whole post.
Are you saying that the threaded post on the lower end of the starter lead where it joins onto the starter motor comes out of the starter?
If so, there's your problem, right enough.
That post in the visible bit of a bolt that pokes through the starter motor casing with a square head on the inside end.
It's the only part Honda doesn't sell as a spare bit, but you can make one by filing the head on a suitably-sized bolt. M6 thread, as I recall.
Let us know. (if I've misunderstood what you were saying, apologies).
Or just fit a spare motor to check it, of course.
I've got a spare motor, but would need to fabricate a bolt for it.
Yours for £40 plus £10p+p if you're having trouble getting hold of one.
Sorry 'bout the cost, but unemployed and can't afford to be generous.
Are you saying that the threaded post on the lower end of the starter lead where it joins onto the starter motor comes out of the starter?
If so, there's your problem, right enough.
That post in the visible bit of a bolt that pokes through the starter motor casing with a square head on the inside end.
It's the only part Honda doesn't sell as a spare bit, but you can make one by filing the head on a suitably-sized bolt. M6 thread, as I recall.
Let us know. (if I've misunderstood what you were saying, apologies).
Or just fit a spare motor to check it, of course.
I've got a spare motor, but would need to fabricate a bolt for it.
Yours for £40 plus £10p+p if you're having trouble getting hold of one.
Sorry 'bout the cost, but unemployed and can't afford to be generous.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
-
mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
Hi mate,
trying a starter motor this sunday,don't hold much hope thou.still clicking noise and a small "cheech" noise from the starter motor area.??
trying a starter motor this sunday,don't hold much hope thou.still clicking noise and a small "cheech" noise from the starter motor area.??
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
Yes, but was that what you meant? That the threaded post pulls out of the starter motor?
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
-
mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
Has anyone got a spare sparkplug socket for the firestorm,I think this may be a bigger issue than I thought!!!
I need to remove the front spark plug and try see if the engine turns anti clock wise by hand!
Some one has suggested the cam chain may have jumped and the piston could be touching a valve,hence the clicking.
Anyone willing to help me sort it out if this should be the case,,,,for payment of course...?
I need to remove the front spark plug and try see if the engine turns anti clock wise by hand!
Some one has suggested the cam chain may have jumped and the piston could be touching a valve,hence the clicking.
Anyone willing to help me sort it out if this should be the case,,,,for payment of course...?
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
There should be a socket with a hex post fitted in the toolkit for the plugs.
But you can turn the engine over with a 17mm socket on the LH side inspection cover. doesn't matter if the plugs are in or not, it'll still turn over by hand.
Be careful with getting the inspection cover off- they're made of cheese and the hex key socket strips real easy.
If/when it happens, just drift it off with a centre punch. Carefully, as I seem to remember one member on here knocking a hole in the alternator cover itself
There's two little covers on the LH side casing, the centre one is the one you want; the other one is where you can see the timing and TDC marks.
You'll feel a little compression resistance, but this releases (leakage past the valves and piston rings) if you trun it slowly. So you should be able to turn the engine anticlockwise using a socket without it stopping.
Before you even go there, have you tried jump leads from a car?
It's still 12V so will work fine, as long as you get the leads the right way round!
This will make sure that your battery's ok.
Even though it's putting out 12V, it can still not have enough oomph to turn over a vee twin.
Can't hurt to try, unles you've aleady done this?
But you can turn the engine over with a 17mm socket on the LH side inspection cover. doesn't matter if the plugs are in or not, it'll still turn over by hand.
Be careful with getting the inspection cover off- they're made of cheese and the hex key socket strips real easy.
If/when it happens, just drift it off with a centre punch. Carefully, as I seem to remember one member on here knocking a hole in the alternator cover itself
There's two little covers on the LH side casing, the centre one is the one you want; the other one is where you can see the timing and TDC marks.
You'll feel a little compression resistance, but this releases (leakage past the valves and piston rings) if you trun it slowly. So you should be able to turn the engine anticlockwise using a socket without it stopping.
Before you even go there, have you tried jump leads from a car?
It's still 12V so will work fine, as long as you get the leads the right way round!
This will make sure that your battery's ok.
Even though it's putting out 12V, it can still not have enough oomph to turn over a vee twin.
Can't hurt to try, unles you've aleady done this?
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
thanks tony.
do I have to keep turning it until it lines up again in the timming inspection cap or does that not matter?
do I have to keep turning it until it lines up again in the timming inspection cap or does that not matter?
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
Seems to me from reading your posts that you are suspecting a valve obstructing the piston, preventing the engine from rotating, which could be why the starter won't roll the engine over.
You could be right, but this doesn't seem very likely.
Here's why:
In my experience, (which is not all-exclusive, and I can be wrong! Difficult to diagnose when you can't get your hands on the bike) it's rare that a bent valve actually obstructs the piston. Usually, the valve is bent, then doesn't seat properly, but when the piston hits the valve when the valve timing slips as a result of a failed CCT, the valve deforms enough so that when turning the engine over by hand you can't feel any resistance.
I would imagine that's because the piston/valve impacts happen far harder when the engine's actually running, and due to the fact that the piston is no longer stretching the con rod a bit at TDC, the oil isn't being pumped into the bottom end bearing and the valve isn't being pushed down at high speed.
The horrible knocking noise you get when this has taken place simply doesn't happen (or at least, nowhere near as much) when the engine is rolled over by hand.
So what you're now trying to do is to check that the engine isn't being prevented form rolling over enough to stop the starter operating properly by a dropped valve or similar.
As I've said, this scenario is possible but not the first thing that you should check, in my opinion it's far more likely to be centered around the starter motor and it's wiring/control gear because even when a valve has been bent, the engine will still turn over on the button no problems- unless of course it's actually dropped a valve head into the cylinder.
In order to check this, all you need to do is to reassure yourself that the engine will turn over by hand a few times.
Bearing in mind that the crankshaft turns two full revolutions for one camshaft revolution, you need to have been able to turn the engine over at least two full turns without mechanical resistance (ignore the compression resisitance I mentioned in an earlier post).
SO here's what you have to do, in easy steps:
1. Turn the engine over by hand at least two full revolutions, and make sure that it is free to revolve, ignoring the compression resistance if you still have the plugs in. If you use a solid bar form your socket set, not a ratchet, you can see how many turns you have gone. Turn it four times to make sure. Doesn't matter where you start in the cycle, TDC or anywhere else, so you don't even need for this test to remove the smaller inspection window.
This test will reassure you that your engine isn't damaged mechanically, or at least not damaged enough to prevent the starter turning the engine over properly.
2. Tell me about the clamp post on the starter motor.
I've asked you what exactly you meant when you said in an earlier post you were able to pull it out and re-insert it. So when you pull the lower end of the starter motor lead, where it joins the starter motor itself, does it pull out?
Is it a firm connection, can you see any burning or evidence of arcing (burn marks, bits of copper blobs) and lastly, when you operate the starter, does the lead get very hot very quickly?
(put your hand on it while operating the button, but be careful not to get burnt).
What we're looking for here is that the lead/motor connection isn't damaged/making a bad connection.
3. Try a jump lead from a car battery. You can leave the battery connected to the car, but make sure the connections are the right way round. (pos to pos, neg to neg).
Does it now turn over?
What we're checking her is that the starter motor is able to draw sufficient current form the battery- if not the battery's at fault, or it's connections.
Let me know what results you get, and we'll crack on from there.
Or stick it on a trailer, bring it to Kent and I'll sort it for you!
Tony
You could be right, but this doesn't seem very likely.
Here's why:
In my experience, (which is not all-exclusive, and I can be wrong! Difficult to diagnose when you can't get your hands on the bike) it's rare that a bent valve actually obstructs the piston. Usually, the valve is bent, then doesn't seat properly, but when the piston hits the valve when the valve timing slips as a result of a failed CCT, the valve deforms enough so that when turning the engine over by hand you can't feel any resistance.
I would imagine that's because the piston/valve impacts happen far harder when the engine's actually running, and due to the fact that the piston is no longer stretching the con rod a bit at TDC, the oil isn't being pumped into the bottom end bearing and the valve isn't being pushed down at high speed.
The horrible knocking noise you get when this has taken place simply doesn't happen (or at least, nowhere near as much) when the engine is rolled over by hand.
So what you're now trying to do is to check that the engine isn't being prevented form rolling over enough to stop the starter operating properly by a dropped valve or similar.
As I've said, this scenario is possible but not the first thing that you should check, in my opinion it's far more likely to be centered around the starter motor and it's wiring/control gear because even when a valve has been bent, the engine will still turn over on the button no problems- unless of course it's actually dropped a valve head into the cylinder.
In order to check this, all you need to do is to reassure yourself that the engine will turn over by hand a few times.
Bearing in mind that the crankshaft turns two full revolutions for one camshaft revolution, you need to have been able to turn the engine over at least two full turns without mechanical resistance (ignore the compression resisitance I mentioned in an earlier post).
SO here's what you have to do, in easy steps:
1. Turn the engine over by hand at least two full revolutions, and make sure that it is free to revolve, ignoring the compression resistance if you still have the plugs in. If you use a solid bar form your socket set, not a ratchet, you can see how many turns you have gone. Turn it four times to make sure. Doesn't matter where you start in the cycle, TDC or anywhere else, so you don't even need for this test to remove the smaller inspection window.
This test will reassure you that your engine isn't damaged mechanically, or at least not damaged enough to prevent the starter turning the engine over properly.
2. Tell me about the clamp post on the starter motor.
I've asked you what exactly you meant when you said in an earlier post you were able to pull it out and re-insert it. So when you pull the lower end of the starter motor lead, where it joins the starter motor itself, does it pull out?
Is it a firm connection, can you see any burning or evidence of arcing (burn marks, bits of copper blobs) and lastly, when you operate the starter, does the lead get very hot very quickly?
(put your hand on it while operating the button, but be careful not to get burnt).
What we're looking for here is that the lead/motor connection isn't damaged/making a bad connection.
3. Try a jump lead from a car battery. You can leave the battery connected to the car, but make sure the connections are the right way round. (pos to pos, neg to neg).
Does it now turn over?
What we're checking her is that the starter motor is able to draw sufficient current form the battery- if not the battery's at fault, or it's connections.
Let me know what results you get, and we'll crack on from there.
Or stick it on a trailer, bring it to Kent and I'll sort it for you!
Tony
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
-
mwross1964
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:52 pm
- Location: galashiels, scottish borders
Re: electrical problem ?? or is it?
Tony thank you very much so far,
Unfortunately I could not get the inspection cover off,I only had one 10mm allen key and it would not budge,even with some leverage!
so I cant yet tell if the engine is able to turn..
I have tried a new starter cable from the relay to the starter motor and another starter motor itself , connecting the jump leads from a car battery and still nothing.?
The starter lead does get very hot very quickly where it connects to the motor after a few try's with the starter button pressed.
I am totally lost with this, as I am not very mechanical minded and its very lonely out here trying anything that i'm not sure off in the first place, myself,there's only so many times I can scrath my head!
A motorcycle garage have said they will look at it if I can get it there,but say if its something like the valve/piston job with the cct's slipping then i'm looking at around 300-400 quid I aint got!!
Unfortunately I could not get the inspection cover off,I only had one 10mm allen key and it would not budge,even with some leverage!
so I cant yet tell if the engine is able to turn..
I have tried a new starter cable from the relay to the starter motor and another starter motor itself , connecting the jump leads from a car battery and still nothing.?
The starter lead does get very hot very quickly where it connects to the motor after a few try's with the starter button pressed.
I am totally lost with this, as I am not very mechanical minded and its very lonely out here trying anything that i'm not sure off in the first place, myself,there's only so many times I can scrath my head!
A motorcycle garage have said they will look at it if I can get it there,but say if its something like the valve/piston job with the cct's slipping then i'm looking at around 300-400 quid I aint got!!
anything with wheels or tits is gonna cost ya money.
but who needs money
but who needs money