Starter Clatter??

[mattster]

Hi all!

I'm a firestorm newbie - just picked mine up yesterday morning! Went out to the garage this morning expecting another funfilled day of V-Twin madness, but instead I got a new experience.... a flooded engine (my fault!) and a horrible noise from the bike when the starter motor is turning!! Imagine the noise you get when your car engine is running, but you try to start it again....

Sounds like gears crashing into each other and not being happy about it...

Anyways, I drained the carbs, then decided to fit the manual CCTs which came with the bike, then thought I'd give the starter another try... still the same. It's not a constant clatter, more like something is catching, then clattering, then catching, then clattering..

I took the starter motor off, the teeth on the shaft there appear to be fine. The teeth on the cog where the starter motor shaft attaches are fine as well, BUT.... according to the Haynes manual, I should only be able to turn that cog Anti-Clockwise, if I attempt to turn it clockwise it should lock. On mine, I can turn it freely clockwise, but it locks out going Anti-clockwise??

I'm now guessing that there is an issue with the starter/sprag clutch, but after having a wee search on here, i notice some people have had issues with the Idler gear (that cog?) assembly.... Is this a common issue? When I'm home from work tomorrow I'll get the alternator cover off - what should I be looking out for? Any hints n tips?

Cheers!

[benny hedges]

could just be the sprags are worn or dirty and sticking.
good luck getting the flywheel off lol - you can get them off by Gently tapping the nut on the end of the shaft, or borrow the threaded extractor tool from somewhere...

when you have the assembly off in your hand, attached to the flywheel, you are correct - it should only turn (silently) in one direction.
it should immediately lock in the other direction.
pop the outer gear off and inspect the sprags inside the ring thing - it should just drop out once you remove the gear.
i'd clean it up in parrafin or something before checking - as it might just be shitted up.
it does get oil in there so if it's been stood for a while....

[mattster]

Cheers for the reply - I'll try and get it off tomorrow! don't have any paraffin, would brake cleaner be ok?

The bike has done 38k miles, but only 5k in the past 7 years! More than likely it is going to be caked...

[benny hedges]

would brake cleaner be ok?

should be fine.
tbh i use cillit bang foam spray for cleaning shiity parts as its only a quid in the local shop
brilliant stuff.
hopefully you will find it's just gummed up a bit. in fact you may be as well trying to clean it up before you take the flywheel off.
just passed on my spare starter clutch - maybe someone here has a spare?

[mattster]

Right.... Alt cover off, Alt rotor nut off, but I can't get the damn Alternator Rotor thing off...

According to Mr Haynes, I need a rotor puller. Anyone any idea what size of thread it needs? Looks approx 12mm to me, but I'm not sure.

Is there another way to remove it without a puller?

Would I be able to screw a bolt the same size into there then just pull it out??

\M

[tony.mon]

Can't guarantee, but often Honda fits the same thread on the rear wheel spindle as the rotor centre thread......

Worth a try.

[benny hedges]

a 1/2" bsp parallel thread goes into it.
it is on a taper thread so you only have to nudge it off the taper and it will fall off.
dont let it hit the floor tho or it will egg.

if you go in any pipe or engineers merchants, ask for a 1/2" bspp hex nipple - make sure you get a stainless one or it will just rip the soft galvy thread off the fitting.

dont bother with a chainstrap or the fancy flywheel puller - the centre of the rotor has 2 flats.
get a good size adjustable spanner on the flats - i had to use a length of pipe on the spanner to stop it turning.
putting it in gear with the brake on is no good lol.

otherwise, if there's a fasteners place local, hardware place, get a m22x1.5 (metric fine) high carbon bolt. you will have to order one tho - it's not the sort of thread they will have on the shelf.

failing that, ask your local backstreet bike shop to lend you one, or ask me nicely and i'll lend you mine.
ive got them off in the past by tapping the flywheel but you wont get the storm one off like that - without the proper kit you're fkt lol.

you could call in at a local precision engineers / machine shop and ask them to turn one for you - i just got a m24 bolt, cut off the threads and single pointed the new thread on the plain bit of the bolt.
takes a 27mm socket and pissed the job.

made another one as well but havent tried it yet - this one just screws in then turn the nut on the end and it pushes it off.


the rear spindle is a different thread afaik - you could try tho - thinking about it you might be right...
and the m12fine is the end bolt - with an internal thread on the end of the crank.
the thread for the extractor is m22x1.5 metric fine, there's only about 8mm of thread inside the flywheel.
don't try to lever it off or you could warp the flywheel or damage the starter gear.

[mattster]

Perfect Benny - Thanks for the detailed info!

I've spoken to a local engineering shop who are going to get back to me soon (hopefully!) with a price for making a one off bolt this size... I'm working from home today, so I might just venture out at lunch and try the rear wheel spindle for fun...

Fingers crossed!

[mattster]

Hey folks!

Quick update here and also a further request for advice...

Last time I posted, I was trying to get a local engineering shop to make me a puller... they've as yet still to get back to me. But it's all good though - I found a guy on ebay selling them! http://motorcyclemailparts.co.uk/Honda/ ... sories.htm got mine through today, it worked perfectly.

So... now I have the starter clutch off, I can check everything out and determine what the issue is. Straight away, the starter clutch assembly was turning freely anti-clockwise, but it was also turning clockwise for half a turn or so. When it got stuck going clockwise, it was making a 'clonk' which if you used your imagination and added the force of a starter motor, sounded just like the noise I was getting when I hit the starter button...

Now, i checked it all out, the idler gear looks fine, no play, no worn/broken teeth, so it should all be good. Checked out the needle bearing - all seems fine. The drive gear diameter appears to be well within the service limits, so the final part to check is the sprag clutch itself:

Mr Haynes says to check for 'flattening' of the bearings on the sprag. I reckon these are pretty flat...they are kinda hard to turn by hand... Can any of you guys give me a second opinion on the pics below :




I know it's not the best way to make sure that's what the problem is, but I'm currently at a point where I'd throw the credit card in the general direction of a honda dealer just so I can hear the bike fire up again....

Then, my final question - Does anyone have a spare (in good order!0 one of these they would like to 'donate' in my general direction? Obviously I'll provide the donator with a small beer fund... Otherwise I'll be calling David Silver for a replacement.

Thanks again folks!

[benny hedges]

yeh mate theyre fkt by the look of it.
it should only turn in one direction and immediately lock in the other.
have a look on ebay - i saw a few for a tenner or so.
chances are they'll be a lot better than yours.

i had a spare but sent it off to someone (sh1t with names sry!)
got my spare one when i bought a flywheel - he sent me 2 saying he didnt know which one it was cos one had like a cog thing on and the other didnt!
so i ended up with 2 spare flywheels and a spare sprag mech.

result on finding the puller - i just made one but not everyone has access to a lathe.
when i get time i'll make a few more and put them on here

make sure you clean it all in paraffin / petrol when you put it back together, and give it a lubing with clean engine oil.
dont forget the new timing casing gasket - about £6 from silvers / wemoto

[mattster]

yeh mate theyre fkt by the look of it.

Cheers Benny, just what i was thinking! yeah, I'll get a new one ordered tmrw along with a gasket. Can't see any on t'bay at the moment unfortunately. It'll need to be silvers.

Since I've been waiting for the puller, I've also rewired the alternator and starter motor, so fingers crossed it'll be alreet for a wee while now....

[benny hedges]

Can't see any on t'bay at the moment unfortunately.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-VTR-1000-fi ... 2eaef8d986 £25

part number is 28126MBB003 Honda Clutch,oneway *d £ 60.35 inc vat
(that's just for the sprag bearing assy) from honda

[mattster]

Can't see any on t'bay at the moment unfortunately.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HONDA-VTR-1000-fi ... 2eaef8d986 £25

part number is 28126MBB003 Honda Clutch,oneway *d £ 60.35 inc vat
(that's just for the sprag bearing assy) from honda

Well spotted that man! Beers on me

[mattster]

Cheers - replacement sprag arrived yesterday - fitted last night, all good!!

Just a couple of wee things to tidy up now, then it's back on with the fairing and away I go...

Cheers for the help folks!

[mattster]

Quick update on my Firestorm....

Popped the fairings back on last Thursday night and started her up fine. Only when I took her round the block did I notice a lack of power and a slight backfire!! Damn. Anyways, from reading on here, I deduced that I hadn't set the timing up 180 degrees out, but I must've let the camchains slip a little when fitting the manuals.

(no damage done - engine turned over fine by hand a gazillion times before I started her up... )

Anyways, Friday night turned out to be a marathon engine timing session!

Started at 7.30pm, removed the fairings, fuel tank, airbox, rear head cover... rear cams were slightly out - 1 tooth on both sides. Eventually managed to get the rear cams aligned correctly, then bolted back down without them shuffling back into an incorrect position... (which they had been doing for an hour and a half ) then decided to follow the workshop manual and remove the carbs, drain the coolant, remove the left radiator etc..... jeez! At least the front cams were easier to setup - they only took about 5 minutes! Put the head covers back on and went to bed at 2.30am...

Next morning, rebuilt the rest of the bike, filled up the coolant and she fired back up with a lovely growl. Back to full power once more...

So I've owned the bike for just over 2 weeks... In that time I've had 3 days of riding, and 13 days of ripping it to bits and rebuilding it! Good job I love it already....

Managed to get out for a wee run with Geordie yesterday too - pics below: