Familiar symptoms to anyone?

[benny hedges]

Regarding the timing, is there a safe way of setting it with a slightly stretched chain?

if the chains are stretched beyond their service limit you wont get the cam timing right as the links will be elongated so the marks, as you have seen, will never line up.

only other realistic way of setting the timing is to use vernier cam gears with elongated holes = more money and more skill rqd
if the chains are worn you will have to change them.
just inspect the guides and see how worn they are. they might be ok.
are you 100% sure you are setting the cams up right?

[Fozzie]

Yeah 100% sure. With the FT mark lined up I can never get the marks on the inlet cam sprocket flush with the top of the cylinder head. If I get the FE mark on the exhaust cam sprocket lined up, which I can just about on FT, the FI on the inlet cam sprocket is either above or below the top of the head. Ive tried with a slightly tensioned and untensioned chain and just moving the chain along the inlet cam sprocket one tooth causes the difference. It frustrated the hell outta me.

I hope the guides are good, means less quids (about £60 from Honda I think for all 4). I dont have much free time till September now and dont have the tools to remove flywheel etc so I might have to consider a garage job and bugger knows how much thats gonna cost!

[Fozzie]

Right after studying whats required in more detail, i'm not sure i'll be able to afford to pay someone to change the cam chains. Anyone had them changed at a garage? How much did it cost?

After looking at getting the required tools for the job, I see some people have used large bolts like M20's as rotor pullers on other bikes. Is it possible on the Storm and if so does anyone know what size bolt to use? If I have to do it myself, the less I pay the better.

Also looking at the rear cam chain it seems that only the front chain has been overstretched, possibly due to the slip and bent valves I guess. Is it possible to leave the rear cam chain alone if everything is lining up? Or at least wait another payday to do that one? The RI/RE marks on the cams line up exactly on the rear at the RT mark.

[benny hedges]

After looking at getting the required tools for the job, I see some people have used large bolts like M20's as rotor pullers on other bikes. Is it possible on the Storm and if so does anyone know what size bolt to use? If I have to do it myself, the less I pay the better.

if you remove the timing cover with the stator, you can take out the m8 cpaheads (allen bolts) that hold the sprag gear on the flywheel, then use a flat plate/ bar with holes drilled to line up with the m8 threads.
put some studding through the holes and the bar, tighten nuts on the end, off comes the rotor.
recommend you leave the nut on the end to protect the threads.

not a massive job to do yourself m8. certainly wouldnt pay a shop to do it.
is there no-one on here who lives near you who is a bit more familiar with the motor???

if you are sure the back lines up fine then just do the front - you can always do the rear at a later date when you have the £ spare.

just a thought - i picked up my lightened flywheel tonight so will have to fab up a tool to get the original one off so i can fit the modded one.
if you like i'll lend it to you when i'm done, save you fkin about

tony, yours will be done by wkend bud

[Fozzie]

if you are sure the back lines up fine then just do the front - you can always do the rear at a later date when you have the £ spare.

just a thought - i picked up my lightened flywheel tonight so will have to fab up a tool to get the original one off so i can fit the modded one.
if you like i'll lend it to you when i'm done, save you fkin about

Good stuff, i'll just do the front one then till I can free up some more cash. Anyone know where I can get cam chain guides cheaper than Honda? Theres a used one on ebay but its almost the same price as a new one from Honda. Managed to find out that apparently the puller size I need is M22 with a 1.5 pitch just in case anyone else wants to know. Also struck gold in that I found out a mate that strips down knackered old bikes and rebuilds the engines to sell them on has a nice set of flywheel pullers I can borrow. Thanks for the offer of lending me something though. Its a shame my mate cant help me with the Storm, but he has got a lot of sh1t going on at the mo.

[benny hedges]

try http://www.davidsilverspares.com and http://www.wemoto.com for cheaper parts fast.
dont forget the timing cover gasket

[Fozzie]

Thanks for the links, couldnt find the guides on either of those sites so i'll get them from Honda if I need them. I'll let you know how it goes...

[benny hedges]

ring david silvers, ask for the delectable sophie - she'll find em for you.
they don't show everything on the site.
they sell camchains tho so they will sell the guides.

here's the parts list - the guides are there.
http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-vtr1000f-sup ... E++04.html


get the part numbers from the list and see if silvers or wemoto do them cheaper - dont do a model search, scroll down and use the part number search box

david silvers says "14510-MBB-003TENSIONER ASSY,CA *G
this part will be special ordered in for you from Honda.
Delivery time should be between 5 - 7 working days depending on stock availability from Honda.

wemoto are cheapest - 14510MBB003 Honda Tensioner Assy,ca *g £ 32.96 £ 28.05
14610MBB003 Honda Guide A,cam Chain *l £ 14.09 £ 11.99
same as silvers, 5 day delivery

cmsNL - the link above. and they have them in stock
dont be put off by the NL, they deliver faster than most uk sellers.

[Fozzie]

Thanks for that, never came across cms so thats another place to get bits from! Just checked the website of the Honda dealer I use and the prices are exactly the same as wemoto for the guides. Well hopefully they wont be needed but I shall find out Thursday when i'm off work.

[sirch345]

If I get the FE mark on the exhaust cam sprocket lined up, which I can just about on FT, the FI on the inlet cam sprocket is either above or below the top of the head.

Fozzie,
I take it you have the cam sprocket marks (FE and FI) facing away from each other and the cam lobes facing away from each other also (at approximately ten past ten, looking at a clock face)

If you can just about get the FE mark lined up with the top of the cylinder head OK, but not the FI mark it would suggest to me that the inlet cam is one tooth out.

If the cam chain has stretched that much IMHO both the FE and FI cam sprocket marks would be out, not just the one

Before trying to adjust it, what you need to do is have a close inspection of the cam sprocket and chain to see if it is out enough for a one tooth adjustment to put it right.

This photo shows what one tooth out looks like:-




Chris.

[tony.mon]

Spot on, Benny. It's not too bad once you pull the clutch and alternator off, but why not just slot the cam sprocket screw holes into slots and re-time the cams with a dial gauge?
They look hard but they file ok by hand.

The chains might be stretched, but they'll never break, so as long as you re-set the cams to the correct position to the datum on the crankshaft (TDC) you'll be fine again.

[Fozzie]

Thanks for the pic sirch,

Mine kinda looks like that just on both cams but not quite as far out (ok neither was lined up quite right). I can only get the FI or FE mark above or below the top of the head by moving it one tooth as it doesnt seem out by much. Its about a tooth difference when looking at the lines that should be level between the cams. Had to cancel the the cam chain I ordered from M&P as two days after I ordered they tell me it wont be in till next week and by then my spare bike will be sold. Found a Honda spares place down the road I never knew existed that does hard to find stuff apparently and they have two in stock at a quite reasonable price so I'll pick one up Saturday morning. Anyone know if the chains need rivetting or do they come pre-rivetted? Just so I know to get my chain tool back off my mate who borrowed it. If they do need rivetting, can I not just do the old trick of breaking the old one, linking them with a soft link, and running them round till the old one comes out?

When I pulled the carbs off and had a look down the inlets at the valves I noticed in places, there was a faint yellow residue. I popped a bit of kitchen roll in and it seems to be oil. There isnt much, just the odd specks here and there. Same with the rear cylinder. Now when I changed the valves I also changed the stem seals etc so I'm hoping its not oil getting past them but I havent touched the rear head. It was taken off crashed VTR and bolted onto mine. Also I get no smoke what-so-ever from the exhaust and the plugs have no sign of oil. Normal? Knowing my luck, I bet it isnt....

EDIT: Ok after much f'ing and blinding I can get the front cams to line up but only with no tension (well if anything im pulling down on the chain a little to prevent it from naturally moving). As soon as I tighten the cam chain tensioner up, the FI mark goes below the head, FE above and the lines in the middle dont match...

[benny hedges]

ignore the lines in the middle.
if you want to make it easier, put a line of tippex across the fe fi lines and draw across it with a biro and ruler, makes it stand out a bit more and is easier to see - especially on the back cyl where the frame hides the re mark.

the chain will be ready joined and right length etc. just do it the proper way, it's easy enough, assuming you can get the flywheel off lol
don't worry about the goldy lookin stain = normal.

when lining the cams up, you should be pulling the non-tensioner side tight - all the slack should be on the tensioner side, and will be taken up when you fit the ccts.
don't forget you want the chain quite slack in the middle, just not enough to jump a tooth.
that's probably what damaged the chain in the first place, front cct too tight .

dont forget you need a timing cover gasket - it won't come out in 1 piece lol!

[Fozzie]

don't forget you want the chain quite slack in the middle, just not enough to jump a tooth.

Thanks benny,

Age old question, how much is slack? And just had a spark when you say putting tension on the non-CCT side when setting the timing. Mine line up when I keep the chain tension ON the CCT side by hand so I can get the cams to line up, but not on the FT mark. Can a cam chain jump a sprocket tooth at the flywheel end? Just thinking if I skipped the chain back or forward one tooth on that sprocket maybe I can get the slack part of the chain to the CCT side. So basically i'd try setting the cams right, taking the chain off the other end, line up the FT mark and putting the chain back on, if it lines up right of course. The more I think about it, the more I think I shouldnt be able to get the cams line up at all should I if the chain is too stretched? Any thoughts?

[Fozzie]

don't forget you want the chain quite slack in the middle, just not enough to jump a tooth.

Thanks benny,

Age old question, how much is slack? And just had a spark when you say putting tension on the non-CCT side when setting the timing. Mine line up when I keep the chain tension ON the CCT side by hand so I can get the cams to line up, but not on the FT mark. Can a cam chain jump a sprocket tooth at the flywheel end? Just thinking if I skipped the chain back or forward one tooth on that sprocket maybe I can get the slack part of the chain to the CCT side. So basically i'd try setting the cams right, taking the chain off the other end, line up the FT mark and putting the chain back on, if it lines up right of course. The more I think about it, the more I think I shouldnt be able to get the cams line up at all should I if the chain is too stretched? Any thoughts?