OK, think of the money your saving by changing it yourself. I use Honda GN4 10W-40 oil for my Superhawk. You can get a case 12 quarts for $37.00 U.S. So thats under $10 each time you need to change you oil. I suprised that noone else mentioned the Honda oil that is listed in the shop manual. I would advise you to use a motorcycle oil at least. Since you seem to like castrol oil, they also make a motorcycle oil that you may want to check out.
Everyone is telling you correct. Car oil does not lub the gears & clutch enough. And if you ride like me, you don't want to do that.
Here is a link to get you my price on the oil.
http://www.hondadirectlineusa.com/store ... =508298686
Is oil! oil?
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Iwantafirestorm
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:42 am
OK we've all had our say. Now it's my turn:
1) Bike engines do rev higher than cars so that is probably a point to note.
2) Firestorm's engines are lower revving than most other bikes, so that negates the above argument, but I still wouldn't trust putting car oil in. Bikes need to be looked after and moly-coddled. (Car oil is made in higher volumes (car's take more oil) and so is cheaper in price and quality. Bike oil is made in less volume and I always feel it is better quality)
3) The gearbox probably would see the car oil to it's premature death.
4) I'd only use semi-synthetic (not fully) as it's not a high-revving engine (generally fully synth is for high-revvers). (+ the comment about synthetic oil being chemicals with a bit of oil in it)
5) I've always used Silkolene oil. It is really good stuff, much cheaper than Castrol (thus saving which was the whole point of this thread), it's make-up looks good and it's made in UK (Castrol is French). Check out Silkolene's website http://www.silkolene.co.uk (One of the "experts" at Streetbike (the best shop around) who I was talking to not long back, said that Silkolene was as good as Castrol - but much cheaper. Castrol may just edge it, but it's twice as expensive (paying for high cost France - not extra quality))
1) Bike engines do rev higher than cars so that is probably a point to note.
2) Firestorm's engines are lower revving than most other bikes, so that negates the above argument, but I still wouldn't trust putting car oil in. Bikes need to be looked after and moly-coddled. (Car oil is made in higher volumes (car's take more oil) and so is cheaper in price and quality. Bike oil is made in less volume and I always feel it is better quality)
3) The gearbox probably would see the car oil to it's premature death.
4) I'd only use semi-synthetic (not fully) as it's not a high-revving engine (generally fully synth is for high-revvers). (+ the comment about synthetic oil being chemicals with a bit of oil in it)
5) I've always used Silkolene oil. It is really good stuff, much cheaper than Castrol (thus saving which was the whole point of this thread), it's make-up looks good and it's made in UK (Castrol is French). Check out Silkolene's website http://www.silkolene.co.uk (One of the "experts" at Streetbike (the best shop around) who I was talking to not long back, said that Silkolene was as good as Castrol - but much cheaper. Castrol may just edge it, but it's twice as expensive (paying for high cost France - not extra quality))
http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/index.html
Has anyone used oil from the above ?? they specify 2 different V twin motorcycle oils in their list of products.
Max
Has anyone used oil from the above ?? they specify 2 different V twin motorcycle oils in their list of products.
Max
Never used Silkolene in the VTR, but used it in my old Velo and it was very good (certainly on a par with Castrol GP50). The cams would wear out rapidly if it was run on "car oil". Plus Silkolene used to be "made" (think it was a recycled oil) in Belper so it must be good!!
She's my idea of beauty and thats what I ride.
Interesting one this. only 2 out of eighteen would use car oil.
What does your motorcycle manufacturer recommend? Check out Yamaha's site for an 2004 R1 for example.
Does it say the oil should be "bike oil" No. all it says is the oil should be API SF,SG,SH or above.
oil companies spend loads on developing oils with extended service intervals, The BIKE manufacturers specify it. What makes you think we know best ?
I certainly wouldn't consider using low grade oil to save money but top end car oil ?
bear in mind that it costs about the same as bike oil. But then if it's the same price you've nothing to gain by not using a dedicated bike oil.
So to try and the answer the question "is oil, oil" I'd say pretty much pound for pound yes.
Oh in case you lot are wondering what I use....
Castrol GPS
What does your motorcycle manufacturer recommend? Check out Yamaha's site for an 2004 R1 for example.
Does it say the oil should be "bike oil" No. all it says is the oil should be API SF,SG,SH or above.
oil companies spend loads on developing oils with extended service intervals, The BIKE manufacturers specify it. What makes you think we know best ?
I certainly wouldn't consider using low grade oil to save money but top end car oil ?
bear in mind that it costs about the same as bike oil. But then if it's the same price you've nothing to gain by not using a dedicated bike oil.
So to try and the answer the question "is oil, oil" I'd say pretty much pound for pound yes.
Oh in case you lot are wondering what I use....
Castrol GPS
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barrioplano
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:18 am
- Location: Japan
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Rollingalong
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:30 pm
Guys take it from some one who knows a bit about the subject . Use the bike oils in bike engines . You cannot see the additional anti-wear additives nor can you see the cheap polymers " Viscosity Index Improvers " that car 10w-40's are loaded up with . These polymers uncoil as the oil heats up to make thicker the lighter hydocarbon base oils used .
These VII's shear under high heat , high stress such as being ran through the gear box , over the metal clutch plates for cooling effect , up near the piston ring reciever grooves and around the valvesprings . One sheared they are rendered useless and when ran long enough they become one of the precursors to sludge but there are 4 basic types of VII's and they vary in performance . Some full synthetics use them in passenger car oils . The thinning of these oils during use poses the main but not the only problem . Some are thinned down tremendously in only 1000 miles of use .
When you pick a synthetic blend you have chosen an oil that can be made with smaller amounts of VII's and pour point depressants . Neither of these two oil additives have lubrication qualities .
There is alot to the making of a motor oil with additives that work synergysticly to get the job at hand done . While many oils seem similar the are worlds apart in performance capability especially over the life of the engine .
I personally will not use a mineral oil or a blend in a bike motor but in saying that I'm not pissing on those that choose to do so . I'm saying I've torn the motors down using synthetic , I've seen the engine oils analysis's of engines using synthetic vs mineral oil " bikes " and there is a difference worth noting .
If using a mineral based oil I would recommend dumping it more often in a hard ran engine . Be carefull not to over oil your KN's as the already rich main fuel circuit will get richer at top fueling up the oil and thinning it even more . gasoline , or petro as some of you call it does not have any lubrication qualities and hurts the additives ability to do their jobs .
Here's a short list of synthetic oils worth looking into
ELF
Motul
Kawasaki - made by Motul
Fuchs- Silkolene
Aral
Mobil
Maxima
Motorex
Notice Castrol is missing . I do not believe they even make a true synthetic motorcycle oil .
These VII's shear under high heat , high stress such as being ran through the gear box , over the metal clutch plates for cooling effect , up near the piston ring reciever grooves and around the valvesprings . One sheared they are rendered useless and when ran long enough they become one of the precursors to sludge but there are 4 basic types of VII's and they vary in performance . Some full synthetics use them in passenger car oils . The thinning of these oils during use poses the main but not the only problem . Some are thinned down tremendously in only 1000 miles of use .
When you pick a synthetic blend you have chosen an oil that can be made with smaller amounts of VII's and pour point depressants . Neither of these two oil additives have lubrication qualities .
There is alot to the making of a motor oil with additives that work synergysticly to get the job at hand done . While many oils seem similar the are worlds apart in performance capability especially over the life of the engine .
I personally will not use a mineral oil or a blend in a bike motor but in saying that I'm not pissing on those that choose to do so . I'm saying I've torn the motors down using synthetic , I've seen the engine oils analysis's of engines using synthetic vs mineral oil " bikes " and there is a difference worth noting .
If using a mineral based oil I would recommend dumping it more often in a hard ran engine . Be carefull not to over oil your KN's as the already rich main fuel circuit will get richer at top fueling up the oil and thinning it even more . gasoline , or petro as some of you call it does not have any lubrication qualities and hurts the additives ability to do their jobs .
Here's a short list of synthetic oils worth looking into
ELF
Motul
Kawasaki - made by Motul
Fuchs- Silkolene
Aral
Mobil
Maxima
Motorex
Notice Castrol is missing . I do not believe they even make a true synthetic motorcycle oil .
-
Rollingalong
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:30 pm
Here is somethng I typed up for a forum in the States the other day on the topic of car vs bike oil .
I just wanted to share a few points that merits discussion about how some oils are built .
Here is the additive package of the popular Castrol 10w-40 GTX in part per million . Both oils are mineral basestocks .
Moly 55
Magnesium 4
Calcium 2090
Phosforus 790
Zinc 1050
Motul 3000 10w-40
Boron 91
Magnesium 377
Calcium 1101
Phosforus 977
Zinc 1076
In the case of the Castrol it appears they are using the magnesium soley as a detergent/dispersant while the abundant magnesium in the Motul is a primary anti-wear additive and secondary D/D .
This particular Castrol does not use Boron which is a sweet multi functional additive with cleaning ability for lack of better along with additional anti-wear properties that has been determined to plate on the metal surfaces .
Both are too low in zinc and phos for my liking and the Castrol will soon be even lower I would think due to the cap on phos of around 800ppm for API designation SM thats new for this year and supercedes the previous SL .
Something these analysis don't show is the obvious smell of another anti-wear additive in the Motul which smells a bit like gear oil . it also does not show the tackiness the Motul has which is probably a tackifier , common to race minerals oils and added for it's clinging ability during storage .
A typical data sheet would show the castrol's viscosity at 40c " 104F " at around 77 while the Motul came in at 96 in this analysis . That sorta shows the Motul mightbe made with less viscosity index improvers that shear and if ran long enough become one of the precursors of sludge .
Motul is not my favorite oil , nor by far is it my least favorite bike oil . I just post to show some differences not normally seen while riding down the road
A quick note about two analysis I recently saw .
One was the Mobil Delvac 1300S diesel oil 15w-40 . A Honda 954RR whacked it good in 2200 miles . It was very close to a 30wt at those low miles and fuel dillution was not an issue .
Another was the Castrol 20w-50 car oil , a Harley EVO knocked it right to a solid 30wt at 1800-1900 miles " I forget exact " .
I once knew of a girl we called poison , her boyfriend was kinda hard on the guys that went out with her
Some of these oils can be poison for your bikes if ran long enough out of proper application and or choice in viscosity especially when the oil gets fuel dilluted and thats common to bike engine for a few reasons .
Carefull guys , API SM is making some poison and it's going to be everywhere soon .
Disclaimer , some fact , some opinion in the above .
here's what I want to see in my oil while I'm here
Boron 125-350
Calcium 2300-3200
Magnesium 30-300
Phos 1300-1700
Zinc 1400-1800
With Pao , Pe esters and Di-ester blended together for the base oil
Now i know you don't have API oil , well I assume you don't but ACEA A1 is close to API SL , SM
I just wanted to share a few points that merits discussion about how some oils are built .
Here is the additive package of the popular Castrol 10w-40 GTX in part per million . Both oils are mineral basestocks .
Moly 55
Magnesium 4
Calcium 2090
Phosforus 790
Zinc 1050
Motul 3000 10w-40
Boron 91
Magnesium 377
Calcium 1101
Phosforus 977
Zinc 1076
In the case of the Castrol it appears they are using the magnesium soley as a detergent/dispersant while the abundant magnesium in the Motul is a primary anti-wear additive and secondary D/D .
This particular Castrol does not use Boron which is a sweet multi functional additive with cleaning ability for lack of better along with additional anti-wear properties that has been determined to plate on the metal surfaces .
Both are too low in zinc and phos for my liking and the Castrol will soon be even lower I would think due to the cap on phos of around 800ppm for API designation SM thats new for this year and supercedes the previous SL .
Something these analysis don't show is the obvious smell of another anti-wear additive in the Motul which smells a bit like gear oil . it also does not show the tackiness the Motul has which is probably a tackifier , common to race minerals oils and added for it's clinging ability during storage .
A typical data sheet would show the castrol's viscosity at 40c " 104F " at around 77 while the Motul came in at 96 in this analysis . That sorta shows the Motul mightbe made with less viscosity index improvers that shear and if ran long enough become one of the precursors of sludge .
Motul is not my favorite oil , nor by far is it my least favorite bike oil . I just post to show some differences not normally seen while riding down the road
A quick note about two analysis I recently saw .
One was the Mobil Delvac 1300S diesel oil 15w-40 . A Honda 954RR whacked it good in 2200 miles . It was very close to a 30wt at those low miles and fuel dillution was not an issue .
Another was the Castrol 20w-50 car oil , a Harley EVO knocked it right to a solid 30wt at 1800-1900 miles " I forget exact " .
I once knew of a girl we called poison , her boyfriend was kinda hard on the guys that went out with her
Some of these oils can be poison for your bikes if ran long enough out of proper application and or choice in viscosity especially when the oil gets fuel dilluted and thats common to bike engine for a few reasons .
Carefull guys , API SM is making some poison and it's going to be everywhere soon .
Disclaimer , some fact , some opinion in the above .
here's what I want to see in my oil while I'm here
Boron 125-350
Calcium 2300-3200
Magnesium 30-300
Phos 1300-1700
Zinc 1400-1800
With Pao , Pe esters and Di-ester blended together for the base oil
Now i know you don't have API oil , well I assume you don't but ACEA A1 is close to API SL , SM
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Rollingalong
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:30 pm
I see the word moly thrown around on the internet like there is but one type .
ALL modern oil using MoDTC " new oil soluable moly " is much different than the old Molydisuphide used in gear oils , some of the cheaper motor oils and certain additives in a bottle . The MoS2 " disulphide " can create sludge and help produce whats called additive fallout . Disulphide used in motor oils in in suspension , not solution ... the latter being the best deal .
I think for the most part to keep from having to educate all new bike owners the companies who make the bikes just say " moly " only . it's easier that way . besides , what oil uses what type moly " 6 total that I know of " is info thats hard to get .
Look at the Motul 10w-40 E-Tech synthetic I had analized . It's new oil and has a JASO MA motorcycle approval rating yet look at the 85 part per million of oil soluable moly it uses as an anti-oxident . Moly also performs as a friction modifier .
Again ,t his is new oil , look how thin it is . The Ester and Pao base oils will allow this thinner oil to be ran without appreciable thinning like a mineral oil and mineral's inferior film strenght
Moly 85
Magnesium 461
Calcium 2153
Phosphorus 1187
Zinc 1321
Silicone 12
Vi 40c 73.7
Vi 100c 13.6
TBN 10.30
I hope these posts enlighten some of you on the mysteries of motor oils tht are really not much of a mystery at all .
ALL modern oil using MoDTC " new oil soluable moly " is much different than the old Molydisuphide used in gear oils , some of the cheaper motor oils and certain additives in a bottle . The MoS2 " disulphide " can create sludge and help produce whats called additive fallout . Disulphide used in motor oils in in suspension , not solution ... the latter being the best deal .
I think for the most part to keep from having to educate all new bike owners the companies who make the bikes just say " moly " only . it's easier that way . besides , what oil uses what type moly " 6 total that I know of " is info thats hard to get .
Look at the Motul 10w-40 E-Tech synthetic I had analized . It's new oil and has a JASO MA motorcycle approval rating yet look at the 85 part per million of oil soluable moly it uses as an anti-oxident . Moly also performs as a friction modifier .
Again ,t his is new oil , look how thin it is . The Ester and Pao base oils will allow this thinner oil to be ran without appreciable thinning like a mineral oil and mineral's inferior film strenght
Moly 85
Magnesium 461
Calcium 2153
Phosphorus 1187
Zinc 1321
Silicone 12
Vi 40c 73.7
Vi 100c 13.6
TBN 10.30
I hope these posts enlighten some of you on the mysteries of motor oils tht are really not much of a mystery at all .
