another apporach to CCT problem - what I did so far

[bluesman]

Following some of my previous posts - yesterday I have installed Kawasaki CCT on rear cylinder of my Storm.
It took about 30 minutes to mark new fixation holes (3 mm offset from original, 34 mm between new holes and slightly offset to side against centerline) and I guess it will take another 15 min to make new gasket, as I tried it with just sealant just to stop oil leaking....
I did not rode bike, but I did run engine and saw no probs.
What's the gain - Kawa CCT comes in positive ratchet design - it has usual compression spring and ratchet rod that can only go one way - extending.
You can see it on photos.
2 things left to verify:
1. Will be there ay oil leaking from gasket, because kawa CCT's base a bit narrower and at one place only covers 2 mm of Honda CCT seat on cylinder. I guess that's no worry, as carter on 4 strokes ventilated and should not keep such serious pressure that 2 mm wide (in one spot) gasket would not hold.
2. My bike got 32 000 km on the clock. Kawa CCT a bit shorter when fully extended than Honda one (for Honda I am talking about "useful" movement supported by full spring pressure). After I installed Kawa CCT and put spring in I then run engine and then took spring and CCT out to see how much throw left in CCT - when I pulled rod it came out another 5 mm. So, it got 5 mm more to move guide, which as per my calculation means about 7.5 mm movement of top end of chain guide but overall let take out aboout good 20-25 mm of slack in chain. Of course, there is an easy way to give it EXACT throw of Honda CCT - for example as Tony suggested by making a weld blub on end of rod, but as I have limited access to any workshops - all, what do you think - does CCT need more than 5 mm throw left to take care of chain wear or it is good enough?
To see what I mean check out engine cut kindly posted by somebody in gallery:
http://www.abercon.co.uk/vtr1000/gallery/860.jpg
So, either way - it seems to sort issue, and suprisingly as I went for Kawa CCT to multi-brands dealership where guys also run a workshop for all makes - they say they've done it in past to some Storm, but it was while ago. Mechanic said - because they thought Honda has updated CCT with new spring it is not a problem anymore, they never came back to that solution....
I did not really ride bike with mod yet - need to get gasket done, otherwise it will probably "sweat" oil....
Spring force on Kawa CCT appeares almost equal (a tad more) than on Honda CCT, but bearing in mind that ALL honda CB and VT series absolutely equal - I doubt such small deviation if tension force will make any difference.
If you want to give it a try - all Kawasaki ZZR, ZX,Z series CCTs same.
Mine was quite expensive (wrong place to buy), but normally I'd expect it to be around 50 GBP.
Good proof of how reliable it is - out of ALL belgium dealers only 1 had spare CCT in stock and only 1 CCT, that part was on shelf for about 4 years!!!
I apologise if this post affect any of your ideas about CCT - I really just want to help guys, and I realise that it might be not best solution, but it seems to work for me. Of course I will ride bike ASAP and then wil take CCT out to check if all OK.

Here is photos - quite self-explanatory.

[Johnny Wishbone]

Nice.....
Take the bike out for a bit of a thrashing to the redline and see if everything is still tickety-boo....

[bluesman]

Well, I would - but it is b...y cold outside Belgium is a country of great beer and sh...ty weather I mean cold: +9 Celcius + wind and wet ....I did rev engine to redline in neutral, couple of times....then neighbours came out with intent to kill me - you see, I got Arrow race cans
One thing for sure: this CCT single holds chain of ZZR1100, Z1000, and even KZ1300 without problems, why should not it hold 500 cc thumper (as we have 2 ccts)
I am sure about CCT itself, I am only worried about max. extension needed

[delmeekc]

Bluesman,

be really careful with this as there is next to zero normal force in an inline four against the cct due to the small cam lobes and small springs where as the VTR has more valve lift and an enormous amount of spring pressure on the valves which loads up the cct. Check out the size/thickness of the metal on the OEM VTR ccy compared to the one you have installed. The rachet is on tiny teeth.

I built a Bandit engine a little while ago for someone with a 1360 big block, huyabusa pistons and kent cams and you could turn the engine over by hand with one finger still unlike the VTR which is a two handed job, oh err.

Just take care with this please

Del.

[bluesman]

Bluesman,

be really careful with this as there is next to zero normal force in an inline four against the cct due to the small cam lobes and small springs where as the VTR has more valve lift and an enormous amount of spring pressure on the valves which loads up the cct. Check out the size/thickness of the metal on the OEM VTR ccy compared to the one you have installed. The rachet is on tiny teeth.

I built a Bandit engine a little while ago for someone with a 1360 big block, huyabusa pistons and kent cams and you could turn the engine over by hand with one finger still unlike the VTR which is a two handed job, oh err.

Just take care with this please

Del.

Well, you might be right ...I hope not or my engine will be gone..
from other side - rod on Kawa CCT (and ratchet) made of high grade steel, and I would not be worried about that, rather I am worried now about body of CCT.
But then: Storm CCT has not been designed for Storm, it is absolutely same on 50% of Honda bikes, including inline fours....
But even more interesting than that.
Honda CCT DOES retract even when spring is not brocken. I just tried - and it does retract with considerable force. And that's worrying. If it does retracts, it means - it follows the chain? And Kawa one does not....only one way...that means that any design of CCT that stops it from retracting goes against Honda strategy? or: did they (Honda) actually intended CCT to be retractable under pressure or it is resut of not very good design?
Another question - why CCT fails on CBR600F4i and on Superblackbird?
Oh, too many questions for me....sleepless night guaranteed...
Has anybody seen/know how it is done on TL1000 and Aprillia Mille?

[bluesman]

Del,
I think you right about forces in camchain of V-Twin, but yesterday (while revving engine in neutral to check CCT again) I just realized. No.
How can I forget, poor old professor spent so much time putting things on mechanics into our young dumb heads back at university. Please forgive my clumsy translation to English (English is my third language, I never used English for that area - sorry!) - in chain drive forces in "leading" side of chain (in our case - front):

F1=Ft + F2

where: Ft - cyclic force caused by force needed to turn cam sprockets
F2 - tension in "secondary" (rear) part of chain

In "secondary" part of chain (where CCT work):
F2=F0+Fc
where F0 - force caused by gravity force (weight of that part of chain)
Fc - force caused by ....oh, my English not good enough for that....center-escaping force? Normal force? I mean - that force that pushing things out of center of turning...

So, actually this explains a lot - force on "secondary" side of chain only have some "peaks" on harsh changes of engine mode (e.g. slow moving in traffic, sudden open-close at any speed etc) but even when those peaks there - they not so high. Most of the time CCT have to cope only with center-escaping force as weight force can be disregarded. This is why spring in CCT is sufficient.

looks like my 6 years at university on technology-mechanical engineer start to pay back....

[cupasoop]

In "secondary" part of chain (where CCT work):
F2=F0+Fc
where F0 - force caused by gravity force (weight of that part of chain)
Fc - force caused by ....oh, my English not good enough for that....center-escaping force? Normal force? I mean - that force that pushing things out of center of turning...

Centrifugal is the word your after I think.

[bluesman]

Thanks! That's it, exactly - centrifugal! Cheers!

[cupasoop]

See, I do have my uses after all.

[bluesman]

to bore you completely - peak force in "secondary" part of camchain will increase when throttle suddenly shut, because due to inertia of camshaft cam sprocket will "catch on" when rotating speed of crankshaft suddenly dropped. But: because friction force between camshaft and valves does "extinguish" this inertia seriously this force will be nowhere near tension force in "leading" part of chain. Still, it will be a peak force comparing to stabilized state, and I guess that's the moment when spring breaks in Honda CCT.
Now I promise I will get out of here to "Workshop" and will stop boring you all guys

[tony.wilde1]

saving peoples engines could never be concidered boring igor!!

[bluesman]

Well, here we go - I just been to rideout with my Kawasaki CCT.
Because my dealer decided to close shop till Monday I had to use Loctite 5926 "liquid gasket" instead of proper gasket from Honda. Luckily - no leak.
Rattle - can't say much, my bike did not rattle before anyway, and it hasn't started with Kawa CCT.
In terms of what I tried: revved up to 10000 then suddenly closed throttle, tried "harsh" riding when rpms too low for speed and engine tried to stall, tried just normal riding, then 9000 rpm in first gear.
No issues, but because I became paranoid after all VTR CCT stories I suspected every sound I can find similar to "knocking" - after ride I did 20 min session "listening". Stuck piece of wood to engine heads then to ear - it did not revealed any suprises - nice and calm, except usual Honda "constantly whirring" sound when stationary that I had on all Hondas (chain guides? clutch? don't know).
Now I just took Kawasaki CCT out again. What I learned:
1. Locktite sealant seems to be gone to zero thickness under CCT - that makes me think that I need just regular gasket. But it did not leak.
2. I have slightly bent one of mounting bolts of CCT, because after drilling mounting hole sideways I had to put "wide"washer on mountin bolt - I did, but I only found quite thin washer and when I tightened bolt to 23 Nm washer got bent sending bolt sideways.

Next steps:
1. Get proper stock CCT gasket from Honda
2. Get proper thick washers for mounting bolts in DYI shop
3. Check out Honda XR600R tensioner - according to all I found XR600R (not XR650r!) got ratchet type tensioner, and because both bikes from Honda I have hope that XR's CCT might be fitting Storm better than Kawasaki CCT.

Conclusion: Kawasaki CCT definitely better than stock, and definitely sorts reliability problem, decreasing risk to minimum comparing to stock CCT. If ratchet fails (can't think why - I checkd, it is hardened steel, I tried to drill it - tough, but..) - spring still there. If spring fails - ratchet will hold it. And - because spring comes out without dismantling of CCT it will be miles easier to check.

[tony.wilde1]

hey igor

i do own an old xl600r and the cct is worlds different..its like a metal number 9 shape with a coil spring and is all internal too...i think its basically th esame engine as the xr600 according to the manual..im glad your tests are positive too.cheers.

[bluesman]

just found fiches for XR600 - yes, that's totally different system....

Then it is all finalized - tomorrow I will make/find some solid washers, on Monday will get gasket and will put Kawa CCT in permanently.
I have checked all Kawasaki websites and forums - only thing that could ever go wrong is body of CCT can get worn by rod, but even then id does not back out but just getting stuck and it is easy to check/spot. And that's was only one case I ever found... also some people say that rarely CCT can get stuck halfway between notches on "ratchet" rod, and if that happens then rod just does not go back but may not put enough pressure on chain, so that it does not jump teeth but just have a slight slack making engine rattle - in this case it cured by taking out "cap" bolt from CCT and slight pushing rod with something thin - 5 min operation that does not require any dismantling apart from unscrewing size 12 bolt.