yes its that old question again

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DD
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yes its that old question again

Post by DD »

Well it could be worse... could be a oil question, but it aint.
Suspension.... well buggered if I know, The bike runs stock suspension 03 model, now it handles great well as great as it can with the showa shocks, but I find it very jarie as in when riding slow on rough rd's do I want to turn the 'Ten' to the soft or the hard to take the harsness out ???

Another bloody words if I was to turn the 'Ten' to the 'Soft' direction does this mean that the suspension will be softer?
or would this mean that by going softer the sus will take up slowley bottoming out with a jaring result..... so ther for I want to turn the 'T' to the 'Hard' so as the sus prings back smother..... ohhh crap am I making sence here?
What do you lot reckon I'm going for another single malt....hey what if I put that in the forks instead of oil :roll:
cheers Darryl
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Stormin Ben
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Post by Stormin Ben »

Basic suspension gumpf

When you hit a bump the forks need to compress to absorb it.
The damping that controls how fast this happens is the compression damping (no adjuster on the storm)
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Once it has absorbed the bump the forks then need to extend to their original start position.
This is rebound damping and is the slot adjuster on top of the fork legs

If you turn the screw clockwise (inwards - harder) this means that the forks will extend slower
If you turn it anti-clockwise (outwards - softer) the forks will extend faster
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The spring in the forks has a static length and a spring rate. It is the spring rate that dictates how stiff the spring is.
For example 10Newtons/cm means that to compress the spring 1cm requires a force of 10N acting on it.
If you artificially shorten the spring (preload it) by 1cm then you will need to apply a force of 20N to feel 1cm of movement, 30N to feel 2 cm etc

The nut on top of the forks is the preload adjuster.
If you turn it clockwise (inwards) it applies more preload and the spring feels stiffer initially. Lots of people do this to try to stiffen up the standard soggy front end but as you can see from the example it just makes the ride feel harsher over the first cm of movement but it still collapses at the same rate after that. The only cure for the soggy front is stiffer springs
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So to get back to your problem, 5 things would make the forks feel harsh

1. Compression damping too stiff/hard -the forks can't compress fast enough to absorb the bump and so the whole bike jumps
Solution - no adjusters so replace the fork oil with thinner oil (ie less damping) is the only option.
Reality - compression damping on the storm is too little, not too much. Unlikely to be this unless the previous owner replaced the oil

2. Rebound damping too soft -the forks absorb the bump OK but then spring back violently. Feels very like 1 above
Solution - turn rebound damping clockwise to make it firmer/slower
Reality - you'll almost run out of adjusment before you find the right level

3. Too much preload -its taking too much force before the spring starts to absorb
Solution - remove some of the preload (turn nut anti-clockwise)
Reality - the preload should only be used to set the static sag ie the amount the forks compress to take the weight of the bike

4. Springs too stiff
Solution - fit softer springs
Reality - Unless the previous owner has replaced the springs this ain't gonna be it

5. Bottoming out - the forks are running out of travel and hitting the bump stops. Any further bumps are transmitted directly to the rest of the bike
Solution - make sure the preload is not too soft/little then fit stiffer springs
Reality - quite possible


What to do next
Set the preload correctly
How?
Get a friend to help hold the bike.
Apply front brake and pull up on the bars til the suspension is at maximum extension
Measure from the lip of the fork seal to the bottom of the yoke (measurement A)
Lower the bike GENTLY and let it come to rest
Measure again (measurement B)
Compress the forks and GENTLY release them
Measure again (measurement C)

You need an average of B & C (B+C /2)
Take this away from A to give your static sag measurement
Off the top of my head this should be 26-30mm
If it is less you need to add more preload
If it is more you need to reduce the preload


Set the rebound
How?
Compress the forks and let them bounce back up. This is the hard to describe bit coz its not black and white.
You are looking for the fastest possible return speed BUT UNDER CONTROL ie it doesn't ping back and then bounce up and down until it comes to rest


Ride the bike
How?
Buggered if I know
:lol:


Hope this is of some use and hasn't just sent you to sleep
Feel free to ask if you need any clarification/help/etc

Ben
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RAINMAKER
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Post by RAINMAKER »

Thanks this was the best expaination I've seen.

Now in simple terms. what would you say are best settings on stock.
book says front...........4th grove and one full turn out
rear...........second mark and one full turn out.


I use front 3 or 2 and 1/4 turn out
rear 2 and 1/2 turn out

But never really happy, feels like front wants to go wide and rear a bit nervous.
Bt 010 (new) Bearings quite new no play, tyre pressures 34 F 42 R

Can't afford new springs/shock and wouldn't do them justice.
it may be clever, but its not big.
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Pete.L
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Post by Pete.L »

Interesting question Paul
Personally in this weather I like everything as soft as posible without the bike going out of shape either breaking or powering out of corners. I like the idea of the suspensoin absorbing all the bumps and giving the tyres every chance they can have of sticking too the road.
If your bikes running a bit wide in the corners slacken off the yoke bolts and let the forks slide up so there is about 5mm sticking out the top,that should help.
I,m presently running on 3 1/2 rings showing on the front and the mark on the dial is pointing at the "S" in soft.
The rear is on the third notch and about 2mm clockwise past the std setting(but I know my rear shocker is getting old and a bit tyred) so you make want yours a bit softer.
Do the front first and once you feel happy with that then do the back
Soon as the weather warms up I'll be tightening up the settings much firmer and giving it some like it deserves, in the mean while I'm just planning on staying on top of it

Pete.l
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Stormin Ben
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Post by Stormin Ben »

nhr22259 wrote:Thanks this was the best expaination I've seen.

Now in simple terms. what would you say are best settings on stock.
book says front...........4th grove and one full turn out
rear...........second mark and one full turn out.


I use front 3 or 2 and 1/4 turn out
rear 2 and 1/2 turn out

But never really happy, feels like front wants to go wide and rear a bit nervous.
Bt 010 (new) Bearings quite new no play, tyre pressures 34 F 42 R

Can't afford new springs/shock and wouldn't do them justice.
Front - Can't remember off hand (I've got a blade front end)
Rear was on position 2 for the road (13 stone rider)

I seem to remember the PB guide was pretty good.
If you're happy with the way the front works over bumps, braking etc and preload is right (ish) then as Pete says, you need to get the bike on its nose a bit more.
Easiest way is to drop the front forks through the yokes.
One side at a time loosen the handlebars, the top yoke and the bottom yoke pinch bolts
Twist the stancion to free it up and let it extend further up from the top yoke
Start with 5mm and see how ya go, max would be 10mm
NB worth putting a little tie wrap round the fork leg just above the dust seal so you can see how much travel you are using up.

The problem with this option is that not only do you run the risk of the fork leg touching the bottom yoke, it also reduces the ground clearance coz you're lowering the nose of the bike. I prefer to put a spacer on top if the rear shock to raise the back end instead. This has the same effect as dropping the front (pitches the bike more onto its nose) but without the downsides.
I think the schematic is in the gallery (I'll have a root about later) but I had 3 x 2mm thick bits made up so I could try different heights (went for all 6mm in the end but I like the bike loose and flighty) and it takes about 2 mins to fit/remove

http://www.abercon.co.uk/vtr1000/displa ... mment=Rear shock spacer

Ben
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RAINMAKER
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Post by RAINMAKER »

Thanks Ben, think I prefer the idea of a spacer............might wait until weather is better so I can fully explore the feel.
Bit too slippy at the moment and as I ride every day the best option over the winter is maybe to go soft. Really sort it out next year before trade in for old mans bike............sod it I'll keep the storm and buy a tourer.
it may be clever, but its not big.
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Stormin Ben
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Post by Stormin Ben »

Don't wait for the weather, DO IT NOW!!
The bike turns loads better and feels much more natural with it in, you'll wonder why you didn't do it loads sooner.

Ben
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DD
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Post by DD »

Stormin Ben wrote: Hope this is of some use and hasn't just sent you to sleep
Feel free to ask if you need any clarification/help/etc

Ben
Mate....... awesome expernation, sorry I have taken so long to get back to this thread.
Well I have adjusted a couple of things1st I went from 1 ring too 2 rings and 2nd screwed the damping from 1/4 out too 3/4 out.... so hopfully if the weather is right tomorro I'll take it for a spin and see how much worse I've made it.
cheers Ben, and others time will tell
cheers Darryl
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DD
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Post by DD »

Well that was interesting...... much smther touring was quite happy with it, but...... when it came to pushing it hard through the tight and curlies I found that I lost the feel for braking, so much that I proved that a VTR can do what a XR can off road, forking close it was both wheels locked up so released, off the rd down a ditch up a bank back into the ditch left round a log right round a brocken beer bottle left again round a fresh cow paddy (thank crist) and almost back on to the rd... but I staled it :oops:
So I have reduced 1/2 a ring on the preload.
Last edited by DD on Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
cheers Darryl
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Stormin Ben
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Post by Stormin Ben »

Good save there mate!!

So describe what you mean by "lost the feel for braking"
Was it bottoming out? (check the tie wrap)
Bouncing back from bumps too fast? (possible if you've taken too much rebound off)
My gut feeling would be that unless it'd bottomed out the forks, stick with 2 lines of preload showing and put the rebound back to 1/4 turn out from max

Ben
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DD
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Location: Christchurch new zealand

Post by DD »

Stormin Ben wrote:So describe what you mean by "lost the feel for braking"
Ben
Well I like the bike to be set up harder than most people so as when I haul the brakes on the frount end dosent dive much, I am used to heavier bikes than the VTR like the Guzzi 1100i sport.
What I feel happened is the bike droped lower than I'm used to, this not giving me the feeling of stoping (braking) but sinking so I squezed harded on both brakes causing it to lock up.

I also have the ass end harder than most so as the bike will dig in better on powering it up hard, I know that this can make the bike spin up easier (not such a good thing)
cheers Darryl
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Stormin Ben
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Post by Stormin Ben »

DD wrote: Well I like the bike to be set up harder than most people so as when I haul the brakes on the frount end dosent dive much, I am used to heavier bikes than the VTR like the Guzzi 1100i sport.
What I feel happened is the bike droped lower than I'm used to, this not giving me the feeling of stoping (braking) but sinking so I squezed harded on both brakes causing it to lock up.
Hmm, odd. Usually the front end diving gives MORE of a feel of braking. And the increased weight transfer gives the front tyre more grip and can cause the back end to lift. (I rarely use the back when braking hard)

I know wot you mean though coz when I first had my bike the fork oil had been replaced with treacle. Once I'd got round to replacing it with something runnier the front felt very strange until I got used to it.
Your best (cheapest) bet is definitely gonna be to invest in some Ohlins springs and oil for the front. Less than £90 (if you spanner it yourself) will absolutely transform the front end.

DD wrote: I also have the ass end harder than most so as the bike will dig in better on powering it up hard, I know that this can make the bike spin up easier (not such a good thing)
You'll get on just fine with the Storm there then!! :lol:

Ben
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