Chain

[rollingthunderx2]

Fast fun slower It is best to check the speedo with a gps though

[8541Hawk]

I thought the whole principle of dropping gearing was to give you a lower ratio in 1st? Therefore giving you even more drive in first....?

With the argument of "just change down a gear" you can always just change up with a downsprocketed bike, im very rarely in sixth when out for a blast anyway

Well my answer to that is how much more drive do you need in 1st?

My bike, with the stock gearing will happily flip over backwards in 1st if you are in anyway hamfisted with the throttle, so how much more is needed?

I could also say that with stock gearing 1st isn't used much so why would I need a gear even lower?

Yes you can just change up 1 on a downed geared bike...but now how much have you spent to get the same performance while running 1 gear higher in the gearbox?

To keep things simple let's leave 1st and 6th out of this for a moment. You say you don't use 6th and I say your 1st is all but unusable with the down gearing.

Lets talk real world riding. What I am saying is if you could be put on the bike while it is already in motion. Let's say 80mph at that point could you tell the difference between a 15\43 geared bike in 4th and a 16\41 geared bike in 3rd with all other things being the same?

If you can tell the difference could you explain how? Close enough to be called the same final drive, same rpm, so to me you will get the same performance.

I guess I carry on so much about this because I am really trying to understand the other side of the gearing thing but it just doesn't make sense.

After showing mathematically that there is really nothing gained except swapping 6th for a lower 1st it usually goes to something like "it feels better to me" or " the way I ride. its better"
Which just feels like a cop out, sorry. To me it is the same as, if we use my 2 pints example, you saying you like the pint on the left and when told they are actually the same coming back with "The way I drink beer, it just tastes better"? Really...would you accept that as a valid answer?

Along with all that, lets go back to launching the bike off the line.
Can we agree that the limiting factory of any good bike launch is max acceleration while keeping the front wheel on (or at least close ) to the ground?
Also that once you lift the front wheel you stop accelerating as now the power is going to lift the front not drive the bike forward? This is why if anyone ever lofts the front wheel at the start of a race, they get left in the dust.

Now can we also agree that properly tuned (even bone stock but running correctly) VTR will happily loft the front end in 1st just on throttle even with stock gearing?

So if we are good so far, let me ask you this.....
If you had the 2 hypothetical same bike\same rider etc. with the only difference being one was geared 15\43 and the other 16\41.
Now run them from a standing start to top end, which bike would be in front and why?

Personally I would bet the farm on the stock geared bike, how can this be...... you know I have an answer.....

On launch the limiting factor is not how much power you have but how much throttle you can give it while keeping the front end down.
If you could slip the clutch there could be an advantage here but as it can not be done on these bikes so it is taken out of the equation.

What this does is, while the lower geared bike has a mechanical advantage the higher geared bike can negate that by using more of the available power A.K.A. give it more throttle.
So to me, off the line it will pretty much be a dead heat

Towards the top of first I can see the lower geared bike having a slight advantage for a fraction of a sec and then will have to shift first.
This is when the stock geared bike would pass as it would still be pulling the top of first.

Now what happens is the lower geared bike has just shifted to the same final drive ratio that the stock geared bike is topping out in which means it is running a higher MPH at this point.
So while things might see saw a little with the gear changes the lower geared bike will always be shifting up to the same ratio that the stock geared bike is topping out in.

This continues until the lower geared bike runs out of gears and the stock bike clicks one more and says bye-bye.....

So like I have said, I can't see an advantage anywhere and would really like to know if I have missed something.
I will stop boring you guys and leave you with one final though.

I understand you saying you rarely use 6th but I would reply that in the 17 yrs of running this bike I have never tried to downshift out of 1st feeling I needed more drive.
And yes I have run all the different gearing I have talked about not just trying to be a tw@ about it all

[callam_nffc]

On the storm in particular I cant imagine needing more grunt in first as like you say, it will happily chuck you off if you snapped the throttle. My vtr is on standard gearing (to my knowledge anyway)

But my previous bike, yamaha thundercat (yzf600r I think in the states) seemed to stop pulling so hard at circa 100-110, whereas when I went -1 +1 gearing, it seemed to pull more up to 120 easily

Obviously I have no test figures or anything, but it seemed to pull hard upto 120 instead (topped out just after 150)
Also the bike was more a sports tourer so had "longer" gearing than most

[VTRDark]

Discussing what gearing to run is like which oil to use and always brings up points of contention. Everyone has a personal preference and rides under different conditions, some ride more straight roads, highways/motorways and others do more town riding in traffic and lots of stop starts and/or into slow corners. The same goes with track, some are more straight and require more top end and some are more twistie and require more down bottom, hence the reason racers change gearing according to the track they are on. But isn't the point of changing gearing not only for more or less up top or below but to shift the points around as to when one feels the to change gear.

Personally I think just feels better is a valid reason even if there is a placebo affect. If something feels good then one is more comfortable so it's safer as it's one less thing to worry about. Sometimes going by numbers, charts, surveys or whatever is not enough and does not equate to real world experience.

I'm running standard gearing at the moment and have a -1 front sprocket waiting to go on, but am waiting until I get a speedo healer as I have no GPS or satnav. What worries me more is the revenue makers/speed camera's.

(:-})

[8541Hawk]

Hey I understand your points and some might like running the low gearing but it is just hard to take the comments of it is a great gearing to run.

If it was just a placebo I would be able to accept it better but from where I sit it actually looks to take performance away from the bike.

So sorry to ramble so much, I just feel all the info should be put out there so folks can make their own informed choice.

That is why this forum is so good. You can have these discussions and stay civil or even friendly....it is a nice change from somewhere else....

[VTRDark]

I've often wondered why no company has come up with a hybrid between a motorcycle with a gearbox and a rear derailleur like on a bicycle. How cool would that be if we could change gearing like that on the move. A kind of extension to the gearbox.

(:-})

[rollingthunderx2]

"Sometimes going by numbers, charts, surveys or whatever is not enough and does not equate to real world experience."
Better tell the GP teams to bin their dataloggers then...

Meanwhile I'm off to fix my computer using "intuition"...

[Jscobey]

So sorry to ramble so much, I just feel all the info should be put out there so folks can make their own informed choice.

That is why this forum is so good. You can have these discussions and stay civil or even friendly....it is a nice change from somewhere else....

a very nice change indeed!!

i actually started a thread recently on the un-named forum, about possibly changing gearing and to see what other people ran. an overwhelming amount of guys there run the 15/43 combo. it was 8541 that drew my attention to the gearing commander website, which i really love as you can account for tire sizes and input up to three gearing combos at once from which to compare. sure as sh1t hawk was right and the numbers are so close you can say for all intensive purposes they are they same.

i must say that im a fan of numbers and charts as well as seat of the pants, real world, "feel" but it still doesnt make any sense to me. i was thinking gee 15/43 looks great until i compared it back to 16/41 and ill be darned! all the way through the gears new 2nd is old 1st, new 3rd is old 2nd, new 4th is old 3rd.... you get the picture. in regards to MPH and RPM's.

so as much as i agree with the statement that was made about things be comfortable for each rider, making them safer, faster, etc... why is 3rd now comfortable but your old 2nd gear wasnt? ive never looked for a gear below 1st thinking "man im just not able to carry enough speed to hold this line in 1st, if only i could shift down once more...."

you loose 6th because its what use to be 5th, and now you have what we can call 1/2(half) gear before you get to 1st and by 1st i mean your new 2nd which is exactley the same as your old 1st.

i agree that last statement was a little confusing to understand but so is the reasoning to go to 15/43. you sacrafice 6th for the sake of having what i refer to as 1/2 gear.

to each his own i guess

[MacV2]

a very nice change indeed!!

i actually started a thread recently on the un-named forum, about possibly changing gearing and to see what other people ran. an overwhelming amount of guys there run the 15/43 combo. it was 8541 that drew my attention to the gearing commander website, which i really love as you can account for tire sizes and input up to three gearing combos at once from which to compare. sure as sh1t hawk was right and the numbers are so close you can say for all intensive purposes they are they same.

i must say that im a fan of numbers and charts as well as seat of the pants, real world, "feel" but it still doesnt make any sense to me. i was thinking gee 15/43 looks great until i compared it back to 16/41 and ill be darned! all the way through the gears new 2nd is old 1st, new 3rd is old 2nd, new 4th is old 3rd.... you get the picture. in regards to MPH and RPM's.

so as much as i agree with the statement that was made about things be comfortable for each rider, making them safer, faster, etc... why is 3rd now comfortable but your old 2nd gear wasnt? ive never looked for a gear below 1st thinking "man im just not able to carry enough speed to hold this line in 1st, if only i could shift down once more...."

you loose 6th because its what use to be 5th, and now you have what we can call 1/2(half) gear before you get to 1st and by 1st i mean your new 2nd which is exactley the same as your old 1st.

i agree that last statement was a little confusing to understand but so is the reasoning to go to 15/43. you sacrafice 6th for the sake of having what i refer to as 1/2 gear.

to each his own i guess

Makes perfect sense to me...Wibble Wibble

I like to think that Mr Honda knows what he's doing * & I'm pretty sure he did his sums re the gearing.












* Apart from CCT's,R/R's & blue bikes...

[VTRDark]

sh1t hawk

Now that's not nice is it. Don't you come over here and start causing trouble I jest.

For me what I don't like about standard gearing is that I often find myself having to change into 2nd mid corner right on the apex, slow tight corners or mini rounabouts around town that is!, and also halfway across a junction, say when crossing through a set of traffic lights. As soon as I pull away I'm pretty much having to move up into 2nd unless I continue and let the revs get higher in 1st, but being in 1st at high revs is not all that smooth and don't sound good. It's like it's over revving. If I change sooner as it stands there is not enough pull to carry me on through the bend and if I change later I'm over revving. So it's like i'm caught in the middle.

I'm not bothered about 6th gear so much as it's hardly used except as maybe to keep revs down a bit at high speed on the motorway/highway. I say high speed, that would be around 100mph or a little more for short bursts as I'm on the road/motorway. I'm never going to be right at the top unless I want to try and beat the Police helicopter that would be chasing me if doing them sort of speeds Not that I have been in that situation. Crikey that's in the back of mind when I look at other vehicles on the road going a lot slower than myself as I'm flying past them at twice the speed limit. It would stand out a mile to the eye in the sky, and that's easily done say on A roads which are similar to motorways/highways with speed limits of 50mph in a lot of places I struggle to keep that slow on roads like that. Very frustrating to poodle along at 50. I don't like it and the bike don't like it.

So for me it's not about getting the wheel off the ground when pulling away or getting max speed out the bike. I would like to shift the points around as to when I change gear when pulling away. Either change a little sooner making 1st gear even more useless than it is now except for pulling away or later so I'm not changing mid corner on tight bends around town.

I have never been on track and never intend on taking my Storm/Hawk on the track so max traction and pull all the way through to the top is not an issue for me. The street is my track

(:-})

[cheekykev]

For me what I don't like about standard gearing is that I often find myself having to change into 2nd mid corner right on the apex, slow tight corners or mini rounabouts around town that is!, and also halfway across a junction, say when crossing through a set of traffic lights. As soon as I pull away I'm pretty much having to move up into 2nd unless I continue and let the revs get higher in 1st, but being in 1st at high revs is not all that smooth and don't sound good. It's like it's over revving. If I change sooner as it stands there is not enough pull to carry me on through the bend and if I change later I'm over revving. So it's like i'm caught in the middle.

I'm not bothered about 6th gear so much as it's hardly used except as maybe to keep revs down a bit at high speed on the motorway/highway. I say high speed, that would be around 100mph or a little more for short bursts as I'm on the road/motorway. I'm never going to be right at the top unless I want to try and beat the Police helicopter that would be chasing me if doing them sort of speeds Not that I have been in that situation. Crikey that's in the back of mind when I look at other vehicles on the road going a lot slower than myself as I'm flying past them at twice the speed limit. It would stand out a mile to the eye in the sky, and that's easily done say on A roads which are similar to motorways/highways with speed limits of 50mph in a lot of places I struggle to keep that slow on roads like that. Very frustrating to poodle along at 50. I don't like it and the bike don't like it.

So for me it's not about getting the wheel off the ground when pulling away or getting max speed out the bike. I would like to shift the points around as to when I change gear when pulling away. Either change a little sooner making 1st gear even more useless than it is now except for pulling away or later so I'm not changing mid corner on tight bends around town.

Well put you took the words right out of my mouth, plus you've just saved me a load of typing that's exactly the problem I had, I don't know enough about the stats on this subject, all I know is it suites me just fine now, and I also only ride on the roads, still very interesting to read the facts though, thanks for putting the effort in to try and explain it guys

[Jscobey]

For me what I don't like about standard gearing is that I often find myself having to change into 2nd mid corner right on the apex, slow tight corners or mini rounabouts around town that is!, and also halfway across a junction, say when crossing through a set of traffic lights. As soon as I pull away I'm pretty much having to move up into 2nd unless I continue and let the revs get higher in 1st, but being in 1st at high revs is not all that smooth and don't sound good. It's like it's over revving. If I change sooner as it stands there is not enough pull to carry me on through the bend and if I change later I'm over revving. So it's like i'm caught in the middle.


So for me it's not about getting the wheel off the ground when pulling away or getting max speed out the bike. I would like to shift the points around as to when I change gear when pulling away. Either change a little sooner making 1st gear even more useless than it is now except for pulling away or later so I'm not changing mid corner on tight bends around town.

(:-})

by your post im assuming that you run 15/43 correct? and your issue about coming into roundabouts etc... being to fast for 1st and to slow for 2nd... what i gatherd is that now with the lower gearing your able to be in second gear comfortably around those slow corners correct? you said that you were going to fast for the stock gearing to be in 1st which cause the RPMs to be uncomfortable, but second gear would be almost bogging out... so then obviously with your new gearing your not now using 1st in these turns because the RPM's would be even higher than your old 1st gear. and 3rd gear would be justt the same as your new 2nd which was almost bogging out. so basically your saying that you now run these corners happily in 2nd gear.

what i have a hard time understanding is the 2nd gear that your now comfortable with.... is almost the SAME thing as your old 1st gear with the stock 16/41 setup. i say almost because pretty much in every gear the number is within 1 or less mph from the old gear to the new gear at a given RPM. the only one that isnt this exact is the 1st gear, where you do get a little farther spaced MPH at a given RPM between 15/43 and 16/41. still very closee. not different enough IMHO to warrant a sprocket size change.

IMHO the only reason to change sprocket sizes is for race use. since your constently trying to keep the Revs in the optimum range for peak torque and/or horsepower, sometimes you need a gearing change to be able to do that through certain corners.

on the street you can always just rev it a little more, or shift up. i use to be afraid to let the bike spin up and rev. but then i was reminded its a 4 valve per cylinder dual over-head cam, high performance engine. you can rev it up all day and it wont damage anything

all just discussing tho mate!

[8541Hawk]

sh1t hawk

Now that's not nice is it. Don't you come over here and start causing trouble I jest.

For me what I don't like about standard gearing is that I often find myself having to change into 2nd mid corner right on the apex, slow tight corners or mini rounabouts around town that is!, and also halfway across a junction, say when crossing through a set of traffic lights. As soon as I pull away I'm pretty much having to move up into 2nd unless I continue and let the revs get higher in 1st, but being in 1st at high revs is not all that smooth and don't sound good. It's like it's over revving. If I change sooner as it stands there is not enough pull to carry me on through the bend and if I change later I'm over revving. So it's like i'm caught in the middle.

I'm not bothered about 6th gear so much as it's hardly used except as maybe to keep revs down a bit at high speed on the motorway/highway. I say high speed, that would be around 100mph or a little more for short bursts as I'm on the road/motorway. I'm never going to be right at the top unless I want to try and beat the Police helicopter that would be chasing me if doing them sort of speeds Not that I have been in that situation. Crikey that's in the back of mind when I look at other vehicles on the road going a lot slower than myself as I'm flying past them at twice the speed limit. It would stand out a mile to the eye in the sky, and that's easily done say on A roads which are similar to motorways/highways with speed limits of 50mph in a lot of places I struggle to keep that slow on roads like that. Very frustrating to poodle along at 50. I don't like it and the bike don't like it.

So for me it's not about getting the wheel off the ground when pulling away or getting max speed out the bike. I would like to shift the points around as to when I change gear when pulling away. Either change a little sooner making 1st gear even more useless than it is now except for pulling away or later so I'm not changing mid corner on tight bends around town.

I have never been on track and never intend on taking my Storm/Hawk on the track so max traction and pull all the way through to the top is not an issue for me. The street is my track

(:-})

I do understand where you are coming from and I ran lower gearing for many years for the same reasons.
That is why I have said many times if you feel the need to down gear go either -1 up front or +2 in the rear. This will give you a half step down between the gearing you have now, if stock.

Going farther is counter productive. Especially if you run 15\43 because, as shown, you are just 1 gear different in the gearbox.

I am not going to go into my normal page long page long rant......

I will just say that yes I do understand wanting a little lower gearing. I am just trying to point out that if you make this change, make a change that will actually make a difference.
If you go too far, you really have only moved everything down one full step and can get the same results by just shifting gears.

So you end up with nothing different than what you started with except 1st & 6th which you say you don't use much anyways, so what have you gained?

[VTRDark]

so what have you gained?

Nothing yet as I'm still on standard gearing The -1 will be going on shortly though. Quick question! How will that effect the speedo, will it show slower or faster than reality and does that gap increase or decrease as one picks up speed?

(:-})

[Stephan]

so what have you gained?

Nothing yet as I'm still on standard gearing The -1 will be going on shortly though. Quick question! How will that effect the speedo, will it show slower or faster than reality and does that gap increase or decrease as one picks up speed?

(:-})

You can divide 15 by 41 and 16/41. Percentage diff between these numbers will tell you how much more speedo shows. And tell you percentage torque gain on rear wheel as well.

16/43 I run is about 5%, 15/41 is about 6 or 7, I dont remember.