Handlebar Risers

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tony.mon
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by tony.mon »

IanB wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:19 am I made a tongue in cheek reference to "billet" aluminium. Just a word or two on that.

The word "billet" only exists in the world of car & bike enthusiasts. It has no significance, it's a term that came from the advertising departments, not the engineering ones. Not sure when the phrase was first used, maybe 1990's? What I mean is, a billet of aluminium has exactly the same mechanical properties as a piece sawn off the end of a bar of the same material (which is how most metal arrives). Check any book of mechanical properties of materials - there isn't a separate table for "billet metal".

Very, very occasionally, a component will be forged. This is a completely different process and can give benefits, usually to do with the grain structure of the metal. "Billets" are normally produced with a bandsaw, not a forging press.

"Aircraft aluminium", "military grade" and "surgical stainless steel" fall in the same category. Go to a metal supplier, ask for any of these and they won't have a clue what you're talking about. Aircraft use all sorts of aluminium grades, including the cheapest. The only thing "military grade" about metal is the inspection process that it goes through, and the resulting audit trail. Surgical stainless steel can be anything, from common 304 / 316 (which can't be hardened, not enough carbon) to 420 / 440 grades which can be hardened. Unless a component needs to be hard, it'll be a 3 series.

Another one that occasionally pops up is "cryo treated". There are some very specific areas where it works (some hardenable steels can undergo an austenite - martensite conversion) but the effect is minimal - you'd need lab tests to tell the difference. Certainly, dunking bits of aluminium in liquid nitogen does nothing of any practical use. Cryo is a holy word in the hifi world - they even "cryo treat" copper cables, and then claim they can hear the difference :)

Many products are "CNC machined" these days, simply because it's the cheapest way to mass produce items. As long as the resulting part has the required dimensions and properties, it doesn't matter how it was arrived at - CNC, manual or chewed from billet by well trained mice.
When I was in France, I heard that billet was just the ticket.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
IanB
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by IanB »

Hehe, very good!

French is not one of the languages that I ever learned...
Ian
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sirch345
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by sirch345 »

IanB wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:25 am Thanks guys!

Chris, yes, epoxy - done properly - is very strong; most aircraft are assembled with something similar, it's stronger than riveting. The epoxying I did wasn't done for strength, but simply to hold parts in place for the enxt step of machining. I epoxied the risers to the yoke, then set the whole lot up in the mill to bore & tap the bolt holes. I used epoxy on the bolts. (Virtually) all of the strength comes from the 4 M10 bolts. The epoxy now simply prevents water ingress.

When picking an epoxy, go for the ones that don't set in 15 minutes. They're generally not as strong. For larger quantities, West Systems make very good stuff. Unless you add a filler, epoxy will flow like water, and drip out anywhere it can.

The milling machine is an old Beaver VBRP. There's a bit of slop in the table slides, but it does what I need. I posted the video of the shaper in use: This is probably my favourite machine in the workshop - I paid 140 euros for it. 2Hp. 18" stroke, about 60 years old, almost never used. If I hadn't have bought it, it was heading for the scrapheap the next day.

Let's see if my (first ever) uploaded Youtube video works!
IanB wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:42 am Just on epoxying; the main thing to worry about is cleanliness, the joint doesn't tolerate any oil / grease at all. Epoxy also won't work on most plastics. Rubber can be stuck, see below. Some people go to silly lengths on the mixing - yes, mix it well, try to get to the stuff in the corners of your mixing container. But I've never had a joint fail due to poor mixing. When setting, heat is your friend - 100 deg C is good, the epoxy will set a lot quicker, and bond strength will be quite a bit higher. But viscosity will decrease, so it has even more chance of dribbling out. Masking tape dams will keep it in place if needed.

Beware of mixing up large volumes; the reaction when it cures is exothermic. I once had a bucketful of mixed epoxy start bubbling and giving out evil fumes.

Painting over epoxy is easy, just scuff it with sandpaper once set.

Rubber. In a previous life, I worked on fatigue testing Buccaneers & Phantom F4's. We had to epoxy 10" diameter rubber discs to the wings & fuselage, to which hydraulic rams were attached. These then bent the airframe thousands of times, caused fatigue cracks. So epoxying rubber to aluminium: We soaked the rubber in sulphuric acid for an hour or so. This hardened the surface. We then beat the living hell out of the discs with a hammer to put tiny cracks in the hardened surface. This gave the epoxy loads of tiny crevices to penetrate, and a joint (cured with heat lamps) rarely failed.

These guys make excellent epoxy: https://www.westsystem.com/ They have a how-to guide, very much worth a read: https://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/u ... ritish.pdf
Many thanks Ian for taking the time to post up all of that, very informative, also for the video of your Shaper in action 8) and the links for West System :thumbup:
I'm glad you saved the Shaper from the scrapheap, and a bargain at that price :D

Chris.
IanB
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by IanB »

Thanks Chris! The shaper is lovely to use, completely hypnotic. It's a dinosaur, I don't think they've made any for the past 40 years (maybe in India etc). I've never heard of a "CNC shaper", so, being highly manpower-intensive, they've become part of engineering history. Nobody wants them, so they go for scrap sadly.

But for a hobby machinist like me, they're perfect! They will do 75% of what a milling machine will, and all using single point tools. The benefit of that is you can sharpen them by hand on a bench grinder. No expensive end & slab mills. I picked up the tools for a quid each at a boot sale. Add a cheap old power hacksaw (everyone wants bandsaws now) and you're halfway to a nice workshop.

Using the right tool, you can get a mirror finish. Mine'll cut a surface 18" x 18". they're slow, but set up right, they'll take 1/4" off in one pass. They have a habit of firing very hot chips all over the workshop and they seem uncannily good at aiming the chips at the operator. Here's more on mine: http://www.lathes.co.uk/invicta/

One of the advantages of living in Holland is that most houses have 3 phase power. All of my bigger machines are 3 phase.

Having a workshop day today. I made a copy of a Hossfeld bender a year ago, it's been cluttering the welding bench up ever since. making a trolley for it. Back on the bike mods next week...
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fabiostar
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by fabiostar »

IanB wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:42 am Just on epoxying; the main thing to worry about is cleanliness, the joint doesn't tolerate any oil / grease at all. Epoxy also won't work on most plastics. Rubber can be stuck, see below. Some people go to silly lengths on the mixing - yes, mix it well, try to get to the stuff in the corners of your mixing container. But I've never had a joint fail due to poor mixing. When setting, heat is your friend - 100 deg C is good, the epoxy will set a lot quicker, and bond strength will be quite a bit higher. But viscosity will decrease, so it has even more chance of dribbling out. Masking tape dams will keep it in place if needed.

Beware of mixing up large volumes; the reaction when it cures is exothermic. I once had a bucketful of mixed epoxy start bubbling and giving out evil fumes.

Painting over epoxy is easy, just scuff it with sandpaper once set.

Rubber. In a previous life, I worked on fatigue testing Buccaneers & Phantom F4's. We had to epoxy 10" diameter rubber discs to the wings & fuselage, to which hydraulic rams were attached. These then bent the airframe thousands of times, caused fatigue cracks. So epoxying rubber to aluminium: We soaked the rubber in sulphuric acid for an hour or so. This hardened the surface. We then beat the living hell out of the discs with a hammer to put tiny cracks in the hardened surface. This gave the epoxy loads of tiny crevices to penetrate, and a joint (cured with heat lamps) rarely failed.

These guys make excellent epoxy: https://www.westsystem.com/ They have a how-to guide, very much worth a read: https://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/u ... ritish.pdf

ian ,your a very sick man and need help, you will fit in just fine on this forum :clap: :clap: :clap: :lol:
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
mik_str
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by mik_str »

fabiostar wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:53 pm that was a great read :thumbup: nice machining skills sir :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

i have serious mill envy here :lol:
+1

nice work indeed!!!!
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sirch345
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by sirch345 »

IanB wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:17 am Thanks Chris! The shaper is lovely to use, completely hypnotic. It's a dinosaur, I don't think they've made any for the past 40 years (maybe in India etc). I've never heard of a "CNC shaper", so, being highly manpower-intensive, they've become part of engineering history. Nobody wants them, so they go for scrap sadly.

But for a hobby machinist like me, they're perfect! They will do 75% of what a milling machine will, and all using single point tools. The benefit of that is you can sharpen them by hand on a bench grinder. No expensive end & slab mills. I picked up the tools for a quid each at a boot sale. Add a cheap old power hacksaw (everyone wants bandsaws now) and you're halfway to a nice workshop.

Using the right tool, you can get a mirror finish. Mine'll cut a surface 18" x 18". they're slow, but set up right, they'll take 1/4" off in one pass. They have a habit of firing very hot chips all over the workshop and they seem uncannily good at aiming the chips at the operator. Here's more on mine: http://www.lathes.co.uk/invicta/

One of the advantages of living in Holland is that most houses have 3 phase power. All of my bigger machines are 3 phase.

Having a workshop day today. I made a copy of a Hossfeld bender a year ago, it's been cluttering the welding bench up ever since. making a trolley for it. Back on the bike mods next week...
Ian, I'm glad it's not only me who thinks it's hypnotic watching the Shaper working, I kept re-watching your video :D I was almost afraid to say thinking other forum members would think I've lost the plot :wink:
I'm sure I have never come across a Shaper like yours before, it certainly does an amazing job. I'm surprised you can remove up to 1/4" in one pass, I was expecting it to be less coming from a wood working machine back ground, more like 1/8".
I was forgetting the removed chips would be hot.

Interesting you already have 3 phase electricity installed in most of your homes. Apparently all new builds (homes) in the UK will have to be supplied with 3 phase for the roll out of electric vehicles.

Lovely to see in your link the old photo's of the workers in the factory producing the Shaper machines 8)
Thanks for posting that link :thumbup:

I hope the trolley work went well,

Chris.
tony.mon
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by tony.mon »

Loving the shaper, I haven't operated one of those in many years.
I reckon with a bit if adaptation you could fit a hacksaw arm on that.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
IanB
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by IanB »

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind words!

Sick indeed - I've been collecting machinery since I was about 9 years old (late bronze age I believe). The hobby has spread like a disease - now covers metalwork, woodwork & electronics. I prefer the ancient cast iron machines over anything else - Chris, I have a Wadkin UOS 18" planer/thicknesser, beautiful machine. I usually buy stuff that needs work doing on it. It reminds me of:
"Mummy, mummy, what happens to old machinery when it's all shagged out, broken and knackered?"
"Well darling, someone comes along and sells it to your father..."

I also like woodwork; I hand carried blocks of hardwood back from Cameroon when I worked there (all FSC stamped, of course) - padouk, zebrano, ebony - it's been drying and gathering dust ever since.

Some of the machines still need working on - I like to completely strip, clean, fix & repaint them. Most get used as is. Shapers have indeed been converted to power hacksaws, but I recently bought a little 10" power hacksaw, 200 Euro I think. Far easier than cutting steel to length with an abrasive disc, less messy too.

I used an arc welder for decades, didn't fancy MIG. Then a local prison (!) was selling an industrial MIG machine cheap. I took a punt, cleaned & painted it, and now love it. It's a metal glue gun. I now use the angle rinder far less.

Off to paint the trolley :)
Ian
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IanB
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by IanB »

I know this is getting further and further from handlebars, but...

Finished the trolley. I use a 2 pack polyurethane for most things that I build, it cures quickly and lasts forever. I needed somewhere to store the clutter on my welding bench. Here's the result:

The square plates bolt to the corners of the welding bench and get held in place by 3 M24 bolts. Quick to fit, but once off the bench, I have a complete flat surface. The bench has an ungodly number of rawl bolts into the concrete wall behind it, so after years of struggling with floating benches, I finally have somewhere solid.

Happy with that, time for a beer! :beer:
Ian (1).jpg
Ian (2).jpg
Ian (3).jpg
Ian
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IanB
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by IanB »

oops - forgot that pics all go in landscape, sorry!
Ian
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sirch345
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by sirch345 »

IanB wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:18 am Hi all,

Thanks for the kind words!

Sick indeed - I've been collecting machinery since I was about 9 years old (late bronze age I believe). The hobby has spread like a disease - now covers metalwork, woodwork & electronics. I prefer the ancient cast iron machines over anything else - Chris, I have a Wadkin UOS 18" planer/thicknesser, beautiful machine. I usually buy stuff that needs work doing on it. It reminds me of:
"Mummy, mummy, what happens to old machinery when it's all shagged out, broken and knackered?"
"Well darling, someone comes along and sells it to your father..."

I also like woodwork; I hand carried blocks of hardwood back from Cameroon when I worked there (all FSC stamped, of course) - padouk, zebrano, ebony - it's been drying and gathering dust ever since.

Some of the machines still need working on - I like to completely strip, clean, fix & repaint them. Most get used as is. Shapers have indeed been converted to power hacksaws, but I recently bought a little 10" power hacksaw, 200 Euro I think. Far easier than cutting steel to length with an abrasive disc, less messy too.

I used an arc welder for decades, didn't fancy MIG. Then a local prison (!) was selling an industrial MIG machine cheap. I took a punt, cleaned & painted it, and now love it. It's a metal glue gun. I now use the angle rinder far less.

Off to paint the trolley :)
Ian, :lol: that sounds like you have saved quite a few broken machines from the scrappers :clap:

Wadkin, now you're talking, in my experience Wadkin are one of, if not the best when it comes to cast iron woodworking machinery. I would say you're spot on to prefer the cast iron machines, except for when they need moving of course :wink:

I have spent many hours years ago working on overhand planers and thicknessers. I looked yours up, that is quite an able machine. I was also fortunate enough to be trained to operate and set Wadkin 6 cutter FB moulding machines, plus I was trained to run the tool room where you prepare cutter blocks to save downtime on the 6 cutter at change over time for a different profile to be machined.

The 6 cutter has six cutter blocks, two vertical for machining the sides of timber (left and right) and four horizontal cutter blocks (two for machining the top of the timber and two for the underneath of the timber. Of course it depends on how many cutter blocks are used per operation on what you want machined. It will machine anything from window/door cills to TG&V or shiplap cladding. It will machine ship cladding or TG&V at 100 feet per minute in softwood. Bigger items that require more wood to be removed such as window cills etc require a slower feed speed, the same for some hardwoods.

Here's some archive video footage of a Wadkin moulding machine, although this one is a bigger machine than the FB model, but it gives you an idea of how it works for anyone who might be interested, you haven't got to watch it all :lol: although if you do get to the Tool Room bit, no I was not trained to use a hammer to fine adjust a cutter when mounting them on the cutter block:


Funny/strange you saying about your Arc welder, I still have my very old Arc welder that I use now and again. Here's my last project:
viewtopic.php?p=489239#p489239

Chris.
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sirch345
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by sirch345 »

IanB wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:07 pm I know this is getting further and further from handlebars, but...

Finished the trolley. I use a 2 pack polyurethane for most things that I build, it cures quickly and lasts forever. I needed somewhere to store the clutter on my welding bench. Here's the result:

The square plates bolt to the corners of the welding bench and get held in place by 3 M24 bolts. Quick to fit, but once off the bench, I have a complete flat surface. The bench has an ungodly number of rawl bolts into the concrete wall behind it, so after years of struggling with floating benches, I finally have somewhere solid.

Happy with that, time for a beer! :beer:

Ian (1).jpg

Ian (2).jpg

Ian (3).jpg
That looks really heavy duty, good job :thumbup:

Much better to give you back your work bench, and being mobile you can move it to wherever you like 8)

Chris.
Rev. Steve
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Re: Handlebar Risers

Post by Rev. Steve »

Excellent read Ian and lots of good info, I'm also converting to 28mm bars and never thought to look at the top yoke pockets so many thanks for that little pearl. After that I need to make some rearsets as a little scrote nicked my bike and dropped it on the off side (why are only left rearsets for sale)??
Looking forward to seeing more of your excellent work.
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