Picked up my new Firestorm on Saturday, and the engine died on me while changing up from 1st into 2ng gear before I'd even pulled out of the dealers car park!
Well, I just assumed that it was operator error, being a new bike & all that, so I just fired it up again and pissed off before anyone noticed and started laughing.
However on the ride home the motor spat back through the carbs into the airbox and died again on another two occasions, both times when changing down to make slow speed manoeuvres.
So back I go to the dealership (sod's law operates and the bike runs just fine), to be greeted with condescending disbelief of the type:
a) you don't know what you're talking about
b) it's a characteristic of these engines if you don't ride them properly
c) we know better than you etc., etc.
So anyway the bike is returned to me with the story that the 'technician' has adjusted the mixture setting to make it run richer and also increased the idle speed. Well I can't argue with the fact the idle speed has been increased. The motor is absolutely racing over, i.e. 2nd gear throttle shut = 45mph cruising speed, and a rapid acceleration to 45 if you are at (say) 20 - 25 mph to start with. wonker!
Anyway, I can tweak that myself as the idle speed control is shown in the handbook. What I can't find is any reference to locating the mixture adjustment screws (I assume there are two, one on each carb?) and how the wombles I put those back to a correct setting. As the garage messed up the idle so badly I'm not at all confident that the mixture settings will be any better either.
Any help gratefully accepted, url's of pages in technical manuals, your own experience etc.
Many thanks
Granty
Carburettor mixture, how is itadjusted?
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Pete.L
- Forum Health And Safety Officer
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Granty
Sorry to hear the new bikes not running as it should
. IS it brand new? If it is I would take it to another Honda dealer and get it set back up under warrantee.
Anyway just in case
The fuel mixture screws are located under each carb to the rear of each float bowl.They have a brass X head pointing straight down. I have the original settings mine was set at as standard written down somewhere I can get them for you tomorrow.Before you adjust anything mark where the screws are now and then slowly turn them in untill they wont go any further.Use a light touch so no to damage the seating of the jet/screw.count the number of turns in(they will be different for each carb) the front will be about 1.75 turns and the rear will be about nearly 2. At least this way you can go back to your starting position.Now you can wind them out to the settings i,ll find tomorrow (unless someome else has them handy). Just so you know an eight of a turn can makes quite a difference(so my wife tells me
) and they will probably need balancing afterwards. The only way to check to see if the mixture is right for your bike without a gas analyser is to ride it for a bit and do some plug chops and then resetting the mixture and balance accordingly(the piolet screws go anticlock wise for richer and clockwise for leaner)...
Ahh Bo**ocks Granty
Its a new bike and this is starting to sound like a lot of pi**ing about. Take it back and moan like fu** 
You'll feel the better for it
Pete.l
Sorry to hear the new bikes not running as it should
. IS it brand new? If it is I would take it to another Honda dealer and get it set back up under warrantee.Anyway just in case
The fuel mixture screws are located under each carb to the rear of each float bowl.They have a brass X head pointing straight down. I have the original settings mine was set at as standard written down somewhere I can get them for you tomorrow.Before you adjust anything mark where the screws are now and then slowly turn them in untill they wont go any further.Use a light touch so no to damage the seating of the jet/screw.count the number of turns in(they will be different for each carb) the front will be about 1.75 turns and the rear will be about nearly 2. At least this way you can go back to your starting position.Now you can wind them out to the settings i,ll find tomorrow (unless someome else has them handy). Just so you know an eight of a turn can makes quite a difference(so my wife tells me
) and they will probably need balancing afterwards. The only way to check to see if the mixture is right for your bike without a gas analyser is to ride it for a bit and do some plug chops and then resetting the mixture and balance accordingly(the piolet screws go anticlock wise for richer and clockwise for leaner)...Ahh Bo**ocks Granty
Its a new bike and this is starting to sound like a lot of pi**ing about. Take it back and moan like fu** You'll feel the better for it
Pete.l
Cheers Pete. The taking back & moaning bit resulted in my present dilemma, but I know what you mean.
Unfortunately I live in the far west and there is no other Honda dealer for about a whole County, but what is interesting is your description of how to adjust the mixture and enrichen it. From what you wrote it sounds like the tank needs to be removed and the whole job might take a little longer than the ten minutes my bike was in the workshop. So I suspect that the tale I was given about adjusting the mixture was baldrocks, and the monkeys just cranked up the idle setting in order to get me out of there!
Unfortunately I live in the far west and there is no other Honda dealer for about a whole County, but what is interesting is your description of how to adjust the mixture and enrichen it. From what you wrote it sounds like the tank needs to be removed and the whole job might take a little longer than the ten minutes my bike was in the workshop. So I suspect that the tale I was given about adjusting the mixture was baldrocks, and the monkeys just cranked up the idle setting in order to get me out of there!
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captainkirk11
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 8:11 am
- Location: hythe kent
carbs
are you going to name and shame this dealer then ?
We then know where not to go
We then know where not to go
Granty
It could well have taken only 10 minutes to adjust the carbs if the dealers had the proper tool (which they most likely did). Y'see the thing is that the placement of the idle mixture screws makes it nigh near impossible to adjust them with conventional tools. The proper adjuster is a long screwdriver thingo (tech term) with a bend of nearly 90 degrees near the tip. To adjust the screws they just set the tip on the screw, rotate the screwdriver in the appropriate direction, and it's done. Much more pissing about is required if you don't have this wonder tool. Stupid Honda! (My old VFR was a piece of cake to adjust - even had holes in the frame to stick a screwdriver through!)
If you look at other posts, there is one with pictures of the tool - you'll see what I'm talking about.
And yes, they were right about the thing just conking out being normal(ish) for the VTR - see other posts.
Set the idle to about 1300 rpm (when hot), and reroute the vent hose for the front carb so it doesn't go into the intake - this will stop it conking out after hard braking.
It's a funny old beast, but once you get used to its quirks you'll love it.
It could well have taken only 10 minutes to adjust the carbs if the dealers had the proper tool (which they most likely did). Y'see the thing is that the placement of the idle mixture screws makes it nigh near impossible to adjust them with conventional tools. The proper adjuster is a long screwdriver thingo (tech term
) with a bend of nearly 90 degrees near the tip. To adjust the screws they just set the tip on the screw, rotate the screwdriver in the appropriate direction, and it's done. Much more pissing about is required if you don't have this wonder tool. Stupid Honda! (My old VFR was a piece of cake to adjust - even had holes in the frame to stick a screwdriver through!)If you look at other posts, there is one with pictures of the tool - you'll see what I'm talking about.
And yes, they were right about the thing just conking out being normal(ish) for the VTR - see other posts.
Set the idle to about 1300 rpm (when hot), and reroute the vent hose for the front carb so it doesn't go into the intake - this will stop it conking out after hard braking.
It's a funny old beast, but once you get used to its quirks you'll love it.
- Ian in EnZed
(Red 97 FireStorm with Dynojet kit, APE camchain tensioners, bafflectomy+ploogs, UniFilter, GenMar risers, Avon Azaros, 90/130W headlight, digital clock/voltmeter), Braided s/steel lines.
(Red 97 FireStorm with Dynojet kit, APE camchain tensioners, bafflectomy+ploogs, UniFilter, GenMar risers, Avon Azaros, 90/130W headlight, digital clock/voltmeter), Braided s/steel lines.
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Pete.L
- Forum Health And Safety Officer
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- Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:09 pm
- Location: Bristol
Chugnut welcome to the wonderful world of twin pots
Granty
To find the mixture screws look through from the righthand side of the bike where the coolant expansion bottle is.you should be able to see both carbs. Fist off,yes it is easier with the proper tool secondly the adjustment screws are on the bottom of each carb so the tank doesn't need to be removed. Ok, found my old notes last night and the original mixtures on my then bog std storm where from fully turned in position.
Front turned out 1hour 40 min
Rear turned out 1 hour 20 min
An hour you say
sorry it's just the way my mind works. I can imagine the face of a clock easier than 0.35 of a revolution
An hour = 1 revolution
Good luck Granty. Hope it is just the tick over messed with. I would also check the choke cable to make sure it,s closing properly and has been routed correctly.Had a dealer leave mine hanging out at the carb end once after it had been in for a so say service. Bike ran lovely for about ten miles then the front spark dicided it had had enough
Pete.l
Granty
To find the mixture screws look through from the righthand side of the bike where the coolant expansion bottle is.you should be able to see both carbs. Fist off,yes it is easier with the proper tool secondly the adjustment screws are on the bottom of each carb so the tank doesn't need to be removed. Ok, found my old notes last night and the original mixtures on my then bog std storm where from fully turned in position.
Front turned out 1hour 40 min
Rear turned out 1 hour 20 min
An hour you say
sorry it's just the way my mind works. I can imagine the face of a clock easier than 0.35 of a revolutionAn hour = 1 revolution
Good luck Granty. Hope it is just the tick over messed with. I would also check the choke cable to make sure it,s closing properly and has been routed correctly.Had a dealer leave mine hanging out at the carb end once after it had been in for a so say service. Bike ran lovely for about ten miles then the front spark dicided it had had enough
Pete.l
Thanks everyone. Unfortunately it just gets worse & worse!
I went out to the bike in order to adjust the idle setting back to a reasonable level, and I've noticed that a hole has been cut into the plastic shroud covering the throttle linkage control just to the right of the idle adjuster.
So would you please have a look at your own bikes and tell me if this is a standard feature on the Firestorm, or if my dealer has been doing some butchery in order to get at the side of the front carb?
The best way to describe it is as a 'heart' shaped hole with the pointy bit at about the 9 O'clock position, and can be seen cut into the black plastic shroud that covers the side of the carb where the throttle cables link onto the rocker. If you locate the right side radiator mounting bolt and look immediately above it you will see a triangular frame section with the plastic shroud behind. This is where mine has the offending 'hole'.
Trouble is I've only had the bike 6 days, and I can't honestly say that this is something I would have noticed if I hadn't been looking for the idle control screw, so it may have been there all along. But somehow I don't think it looks like an original feature, because the edges of the hole are uneven and I think that Honda would have designed the shroud to have been moulded with a hole in if they wanted one, and not hacked one in after manufacture.
Also I found the bike wouldn't start at all well this morning, and was in danger of flattening the battery when I thought I'd give the choke one further tug to see if i could get any more movement out of it, and sure enough I was able to tease out a fraction more cable & the bike fired up.
Is the choke cable supposed to be so wombles tight? I've had carb'd bikes all my life, and although the CBR was fuel injected so I suppose I've been spoiled for the past 2 years, nonetheless this is the stiffest choke operation I've ever come across. Seriously the effort needed to pull the choke out is very considerable indeed, and without getting all Newtonian about it I reckon the force to effect the movement necessary must be excessive and in all liklihood far greater than the choke mechanism could cope with if all the energy I had to apply was transmitted efficiently!
I'm beginning to think that I'd have done better to buy a bike from David Richard on 'Bargain Hunt' - "Cheap as chips, but could be a duffer". Perhaps this should be the VTR sales slogan.
As my dealer is likely to be aware of this forum, and I expect I shall be seeing a lot more of them if early indications are anything to go by, I won't name them here if you don't mind as I don't want to make matters worse than they already are. However I will certainly e-mail the dealers name to anyone who cares to drop me a line at granty996@lycos.co.uk
I went out to the bike in order to adjust the idle setting back to a reasonable level, and I've noticed that a hole has been cut into the plastic shroud covering the throttle linkage control just to the right of the idle adjuster.
So would you please have a look at your own bikes and tell me if this is a standard feature on the Firestorm, or if my dealer has been doing some butchery in order to get at the side of the front carb?
The best way to describe it is as a 'heart' shaped hole with the pointy bit at about the 9 O'clock position, and can be seen cut into the black plastic shroud that covers the side of the carb where the throttle cables link onto the rocker. If you locate the right side radiator mounting bolt and look immediately above it you will see a triangular frame section with the plastic shroud behind. This is where mine has the offending 'hole'.
Trouble is I've only had the bike 6 days, and I can't honestly say that this is something I would have noticed if I hadn't been looking for the idle control screw, so it may have been there all along. But somehow I don't think it looks like an original feature, because the edges of the hole are uneven and I think that Honda would have designed the shroud to have been moulded with a hole in if they wanted one, and not hacked one in after manufacture.
Also I found the bike wouldn't start at all well this morning, and was in danger of flattening the battery when I thought I'd give the choke one further tug to see if i could get any more movement out of it, and sure enough I was able to tease out a fraction more cable & the bike fired up.
Is the choke cable supposed to be so wombles tight? I've had carb'd bikes all my life, and although the CBR was fuel injected so I suppose I've been spoiled for the past 2 years, nonetheless this is the stiffest choke operation I've ever come across. Seriously the effort needed to pull the choke out is very considerable indeed, and without getting all Newtonian about it I reckon the force to effect the movement necessary must be excessive and in all liklihood far greater than the choke mechanism could cope with if all the energy I had to apply was transmitted efficiently!
I'm beginning to think that I'd have done better to buy a bike from David Richard on 'Bargain Hunt' - "Cheap as chips, but could be a duffer". Perhaps this should be the VTR sales slogan.
As my dealer is likely to be aware of this forum, and I expect I shall be seeing a lot more of them if early indications are anything to go by, I won't name them here if you don't mind as I don't want to make matters worse than they already are. However I will certainly e-mail the dealers name to anyone who cares to drop me a line at granty996@lycos.co.uk
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Pete.L
- Forum Health And Safety Officer
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- Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:09 pm
- Location: Bristol
Oh Boy! Oh Boy! Ar'nt you having fun......NOOOOT!
Don't worry about the hole Granty. They all have them. It allows you to stick a long screwdriver through to reach the carb mounting rubbers. As for the the choke it has a type of locking adjustment on it to stop it from sliding back in.Your's is probably screwed up to tight.
To gain access to the choke adj pull the choke cable out and remove the rubber boot which stops moisture ingressing the plunger. under the rubber boot you will find a plastic locking nut. The more you turn it clockwise the stiffer your choke cable becomes. Loosen it off to suit your requirements and hey presto ploblem solved
Ta Ta
Don't worry about the hole Granty. They all have them. It allows you to stick a long screwdriver through to reach the carb mounting rubbers. As for the the choke it has a type of locking adjustment on it to stop it from sliding back in.Your's is probably screwed up to tight.
To gain access to the choke adj pull the choke cable out and remove the rubber boot which stops moisture ingressing the plunger. under the rubber boot you will find a plastic locking nut. The more you turn it clockwise the stiffer your choke cable becomes. Loosen it off to suit your requirements and hey presto ploblem solved
Ta Ta
1) the hole is supposed to be there, it's enable you to loosen the front/top mounting rubber strap when removing the cards using a long screw driver.
2) the choke cable tension friction is adjusted be rotating the rubber capped lock ring that's engine side of the actual choke knob thignis ya pull. Loosen it by hand (anticlockwise) and then the choke knob should be loose and retract back in (after ya pull it out) using the spring pressure of the choke needles in the carbs. If it don't then the cable could be seized. Also check that the cables (splits 1 into 2) are seated properly and that you are not riding with d choke on. a good way to check is to just wiggle the cable gently, don't pull em hard at all as they have 90 degree plastic bennds on them where they enter the each carb. Then in a quiet area loosen the friction ring ring off and then move the choke knob and you should be able to hear each plunger/needle move. Rear is on left side of carb at top and front is on right side of carb at the bottom.
3) if you get the idle mixture setup properly and the carbs balanced the bike should tickover at 1100 rpm without stalling.
4) find a local dyno centre that has the carb too and a new style dyno that has a lamda sensor built in and get them to set it up on the dyno. Before they do it get them to do a all gear run too just incase some monkey has been messing about with d mainjets etc. You have to get the main jets sorted first, then the needles then the idle mixture screws last. If the mains and needles are wrong then your pissing in the wind.
Del.
2) the choke cable tension friction is adjusted be rotating the rubber capped lock ring that's engine side of the actual choke knob thignis ya pull. Loosen it by hand (anticlockwise) and then the choke knob should be loose and retract back in (after ya pull it out) using the spring pressure of the choke needles in the carbs. If it don't then the cable could be seized. Also check that the cables (splits 1 into 2) are seated properly and that you are not riding with d choke on. a good way to check is to just wiggle the cable gently, don't pull em hard at all as they have 90 degree plastic bennds on them where they enter the each carb. Then in a quiet area loosen the friction ring ring off and then move the choke knob and you should be able to hear each plunger/needle move. Rear is on left side of carb at top and front is on right side of carb at the bottom.
3) if you get the idle mixture setup properly and the carbs balanced the bike should tickover at 1100 rpm without stalling.
4) find a local dyno centre that has the carb too and a new style dyno that has a lamda sensor built in and get them to set it up on the dyno. Before they do it get them to do a all gear run too just incase some monkey has been messing about with d mainjets etc. You have to get the main jets sorted first, then the needles then the idle mixture screws last. If the mains and needles are wrong then your pissing in the wind.
Del.
Thanks for all the advice, encouragement & support everyone. The replies above have put my mind at rest considerably.
The dealer I bought the bike from is a reputable and established family firm with 3 large outlets in the South & West of England, and I've bought many machines from them over the years, so I didn't really expect them to suddenly turn into bodging grease monkeys and it's good to know that in this case the problems I'm experiencing are 'normal' for the VTR, and that they haven't been hacking away at my plastic.
Beggers the question though why Honda didn't address these issues and get the model sorted, or why the dealer at least didn't warn me that I was going to buy a bike that was likely to present these 'characteristics'.
I suspect the PDI was rushed and not done thoroughly, and while there is no excuse for releasing a new machine in less than tip-top condition, I suppose I only have myself to blame because I wandered into the showroom on a Wednesday afternoon, made the impulse purchase there and then, and rode it away on the Saturday morning. How quick was that then!
I'm sure I'll love it once the snags are sorted and it's got a few miles on the clock
The dealer I bought the bike from is a reputable and established family firm with 3 large outlets in the South & West of England, and I've bought many machines from them over the years, so I didn't really expect them to suddenly turn into bodging grease monkeys and it's good to know that in this case the problems I'm experiencing are 'normal' for the VTR, and that they haven't been hacking away at my plastic.
Beggers the question though why Honda didn't address these issues and get the model sorted, or why the dealer at least didn't warn me that I was going to buy a bike that was likely to present these 'characteristics'.
I suspect the PDI was rushed and not done thoroughly, and while there is no excuse for releasing a new machine in less than tip-top condition, I suppose I only have myself to blame because I wandered into the showroom on a Wednesday afternoon, made the impulse purchase there and then, and rode it away on the Saturday morning. How quick was that then!
I'm sure I'll love it once the snags are sorted and it's got a few miles on the clock
Hi Granty
Dunno about every one else, but even tho I love my 'strorm, I would be sick as feck if I had your problems from day one!
i don't think this is 'normal' for a firestorm, and I would be dragging the bike back to the dealer to complain and giving them a serious talking to.
Certainly, 'storms tend to 'spit back' through the carbs and they also tend to stall at low speeds, due to large pistons and two pot malarky, but no way should to have to bugga about with mixture settings on a brand spanker!
I don't care who the dealer is, take it back and get them to sort the mixture out.
Point is, the Firestorm is a crackin bike (with a few suspension flaws that can be sorted), so a brand new one should not have the problems that you have been expressing - some of which go beyond 'characteristic'.
Dunno about every one else, but even tho I love my 'strorm, I would be sick as feck if I had your problems from day one!
i don't think this is 'normal' for a firestorm, and I would be dragging the bike back to the dealer to complain and giving them a serious talking to.
Certainly, 'storms tend to 'spit back' through the carbs and they also tend to stall at low speeds, due to large pistons and two pot malarky, but no way should to have to bugga about with mixture settings on a brand spanker!
I don't care who the dealer is, take it back and get them to sort the mixture out.
Point is, the Firestorm is a crackin bike (with a few suspension flaws that can be sorted), so a brand new one should not have the problems that you have been expressing - some of which go beyond 'characteristic'.
low speed stalling
Hi mate
I had exactly the same problem when I bought my brand new Storm back in March. I took it back (P&H Motorcycles-Crawley) and they said they had made a slight adjustment and that as the engine gained some miles and lossened up it would get better.
However it didn't. At it's first service I asked them to fit some high level Remus cans and that immproved things a little. It still has it's moments at mini-roundabouts but I'm used to it now!
I'm also having some suspension and brake work done soon at Performancetechniques.co.uk and they have a Ram-Air Dyno. They have offered me a Dyno run FOC as I'm having all the work done.I'll let you all know wether they sort it
Regards
Nobby
I had exactly the same problem when I bought my brand new Storm back in March. I took it back (P&H Motorcycles-Crawley) and they said they had made a slight adjustment and that as the engine gained some miles and lossened up it would get better.
However it didn't. At it's first service I asked them to fit some high level Remus cans and that immproved things a little. It still has it's moments at mini-roundabouts but I'm used to it now!
I'm also having some suspension and brake work done soon at Performancetechniques.co.uk and they have a Ram-Air Dyno. They have offered me a Dyno run FOC as I'm having all the work done.I'll let you all know wether they sort it
Regards
Nobby
Remember, never put off till t'moz what you can do today. If you do it today, you can do it again t'moz!! Just a thought!
Like Granty, I bought mine last Thursday after wandering in to a showroom and pick it up this Thursday. I`m now a bit worried after reading all this as my ZX6R was fine, despite high mileage, apart from carb icing (cured with FST Pro). My only previous experience or a V twin was an early SV650S and it never cut out. Is this a common problem and 6am on a cold commute am I going to get p*ssed off with Firestorm? Also, do they suffer carb icing like Kawas?
.... no more bike, divorce sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't worry about these things - it sounds major, but really it's not.
The Firestorm has two very large carbies, and sometimes it plays up, but it's not really a design fault or reliability issue. The difficulty of adjusting them *could* be considered a design issue, but then it's not something that needs doing apart from when some physical changes (new mufflers, airfilter, etc.) are made.
Carb icing? No worries with that - the carbs have hoses from the cooling system to direct hot coolant to prevent this.
Within a week or two, you'll be so used to the Firestorm that you'll wonder why you worried. Occasionally, you'll blip the throttle or summat, and it'll conk out, but to my mind, it's just a minor irritation.
Pull a few wheelies or stoppies and you'll be prepared to forgive these minor foibles of character .
The Firestorm has two very large carbies, and sometimes it plays up, but it's not really a design fault or reliability issue. The difficulty of adjusting them *could* be considered a design issue, but then it's not something that needs doing apart from when some physical changes (new mufflers, airfilter, etc.) are made.
Carb icing? No worries with that - the carbs have hoses from the cooling system to direct hot coolant to prevent this.
Within a week or two, you'll be so used to the Firestorm that you'll wonder why you worried. Occasionally, you'll blip the throttle or summat, and it'll conk out, but to my mind, it's just a minor irritation.
Pull a few wheelies or stoppies and you'll be prepared to forgive these minor foibles of character .
- Ian in EnZed
(Red 97 FireStorm with Dynojet kit, APE camchain tensioners, bafflectomy+ploogs, UniFilter, GenMar risers, Avon Azaros, 90/130W headlight, digital clock/voltmeter), Braided s/steel lines.
(Red 97 FireStorm with Dynojet kit, APE camchain tensioners, bafflectomy+ploogs, UniFilter, GenMar risers, Avon Azaros, 90/130W headlight, digital clock/voltmeter), Braided s/steel lines.