Have just found this forum after searching for clues as to what ails my '97 Firestorm and hope you may be able to help.
Last week I changed the CCTs, followed the manual and no real problems until I finished and came to start the bike. All I get is a loud click which I assume is from the starter relay. Battery is fairly new and charged but starter motor does nothing. I have checked the fuses and diode which all seem OK. Not aware that I have touched anything else whilst changing the CCTs. Obviously I had to remove the tank but if I had put the fuel or breather pipes back incorrectly, I would assume bike would at least try to start even if no fuel was getting through.
Has anyone got any other ideas? Does it sound like the starter motor itself? the relay? or is it possible the Datatools alarm is playing up? (seems to be working OK) I have checked other things like the sidestand switch, killswitch.
Grateful for any suggestions please as I was hoping to ride to Donington on Sunday
Bike won't start
Welcome to the site Chris 
Did you try to turn the engine over by hand a few turns (socket on the end of the crankshaft) ANTI-CLOCKWISE with the spark plugs still removed, after fitting the new CCT's
I take it you followed a similar procedure for replacing the CCT's as in this link:-
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8326
HTH,
Chris.
Did you try to turn the engine over by hand a few turns (socket on the end of the crankshaft) ANTI-CLOCKWISE with the spark plugs still removed, after fitting the new CCT's
I take it you followed a similar procedure for replacing the CCT's as in this link:-
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8326
HTH,
Chris.
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chris300hills
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:21 pm
- Location: Hampshire
Chris,
Thanks for your prompt response. In answer to your question; no I didn't follow the procedure as described in the link as I only discovered this forum after I had done the job and found the bike wouldn't start. I followed the procedure in the Haynes Manual and it makes no mention of the various steps in your link.
Excuse my ignorance but why would turning the engine over as you described make any difference (apart from ensuring that the engine is turning freely)?
Chris
Thanks for your prompt response. In answer to your question; no I didn't follow the procedure as described in the link as I only discovered this forum after I had done the job and found the bike wouldn't start. I followed the procedure in the Haynes Manual and it makes no mention of the various steps in your link.
Excuse my ignorance but why would turning the engine over as you described make any difference (apart from ensuring that the engine is turning freely)?
Chris
The reason I asked you if you had turned the engine over by hand before you tried starting it was exactly that, to find out if it turns freely. You should always try that after doing a job which involves the valve timing, such as replacing the CCT's. The reason being, if the timing has slipped and it stops the engine from turning over by hand, you can rectify the problem without doing any damage, where as if you press the starter button and the valve timing is out you will most likely bend a valve or twochris300hills wrote:Chris,
Thanks for your prompt response. In answer to your question; no I didn't follow the procedure as described in the link as I only discovered this forum after I had done the job and found the bike wouldn't start. I followed the procedure in the Haynes Manual and it makes no mention of the various steps in your link.
Excuse my ignorance but why would turning the engine over as you described make any difference (apart from ensuring that the engine is turning freely)?
Chris
I would have a study at the link I posted to see if you followed the procedure as stated there
HTH,
Chris.
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chris300hills
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:21 pm
- Location: Hampshire
Chris,sirch345 wrote: The reason I asked you if you had turned the engine over by hand before you tried starting it was exactly that, to find out if it turns freely. You should always try that after doing a job which involves the valve timing, such as replacing the CCT's. The reason being, if the timing has slipped and it stops the engine from turning over by hand, you can rectify the problem without doing any damage, where as if you press the starter button and the valve timing is out you will most likely bend a valve or two
I would have a study at the link I posted to see if you followed the procedure as stated there
HTH,
Chris.
Sorry to be slow in responding but I haven't been able to get back to working on the bike.
I have looked at your link and no, I didn't follow that procedure. As I said before I have only just found this forum and when I changed the CCTs I just followed the Haynes manual. It makes no mention of turning the engine over to ensure it is in the correct position before changing the CCTs.
What do you think I should do now? Should I remove the CCTs and then start again as per your instructions? Or is it too late? If I leave it as it is and then just try turning the engine over to see if it turns freely, am I going to do more damage?
Chris
Hi Chris,chris300hills wrote: What do you think I should do now? Should I remove the CCTs and then start again as per your instructions? Or is it too late? If I leave it as it is and then just try turning the engine over to see if it turns freely, am I going to do more damage?
Chris
I would put a socket on the end of the crank (with the spark plugs removed) and turn it over ever so slightly back the wrong way (clockwise) just enough to move the piston back down the bore a few millimetre's. (Turning the engine back-wards is definitely not recommended as it puts extra load on the CCT's but in your case you need to determine if a piston is hitting the valves) Then ever so gently (slowly) turn the engine over in it's normal direction which is ANTI-CLOCKWISE to see if the piston is being stopped as it comes back up the bore by the valves. If the engine does turn over freely by hand you can (as Barry suggested) remove both cam covers and check to see if the timing marks line up as in:- http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8326
Providing you only turn the engine over by hand as I have suggested above you won't as you put it 'do more damage'
HTH.
Chris.
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chris300hills
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:21 pm
- Location: Hampshire
Chris,
I have done as you suggested - turned it back a few mm clockwise and then tried anti clockwise but it stops so presumably it is hitting the valve?
I realise that this means valve(s) may need replacing but is it worth trying to adjust the timing just in case no major damage has been done(ever the optimist!!) ? If so, How can I do this as I can't turn the engine anti-clockwise?
Sorry to be a pest but this so called "simple" job is fast turning into a nightmare !!
I have done as you suggested - turned it back a few mm clockwise and then tried anti clockwise but it stops so presumably it is hitting the valve?
I realise that this means valve(s) may need replacing but is it worth trying to adjust the timing just in case no major damage has been done(ever the optimist!!) ? If so, How can I do this as I can't turn the engine anti-clockwise?
Sorry to be a pest but this so called "simple" job is fast turning into a nightmare !!
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Pete.L
- Forum Health And Safety Officer
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- Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:09 pm
- Location: Bristol
Hi Chris300
Just remove the cam chains from the sprockets. This will probably make the valves retract unless they are badly bent. Normally the force of the valve springs cause the cams to rotate under there own pressure. Once the vlaves have retracted you need to start doing the alignment of the cam lobes from the set up proceedure (ie. FI and FE marks level with the top of the head ect)
As I said once the cam lobes are pointed in the right direction you should then be free to turn the engine over by hand. If the engine still wont turn over then I'm afraid you have real problems and the head(s) will have to come off to investigate, hopefully this is not the case.
Good luck
Give us a shout at the next step
Pete.l
Just remove the cam chains from the sprockets. This will probably make the valves retract unless they are badly bent. Normally the force of the valve springs cause the cams to rotate under there own pressure. Once the vlaves have retracted you need to start doing the alignment of the cam lobes from the set up proceedure (ie. FI and FE marks level with the top of the head ect)
As I said once the cam lobes are pointed in the right direction you should then be free to turn the engine over by hand. If the engine still wont turn over then I'm afraid you have real problems and the head(s) will have to come off to investigate, hopefully this is not the case.
Good luck
Give us a shout at the next step
Pete.l
Hi Chris,chris300hills wrote:Chris,
I have done as you suggested - turned it back a few mm clockwise and then tried anti clockwise but it stops so presumably it is hitting the valve?
I realise that this means valve(s) may need replacing but is it worth trying to adjust the timing just in case no major damage has been done(ever the optimist!!) ? If so, How can I do this as I can't turn the engine anti-clockwise?
Sorry to be a pest but this so called "simple" job is fast turning into a nightmare !!
Well it might not seem you are making any progress yet, but you are, as it now definitely seems as one of the pistons are coming into contact with the valves. If you remove both cam covers you should see which cylinder that is, it will be the one with the cam lobes pushing down on to the valves, if both cylinders have the cam lobes pushing down on to the valves (valves open) you will need to check where the piston is in each cylinder by putting something long down through the spark plug hole to find out which piston is near the top of the cylinder. If you can work out which cylinder that is you can then remove the CCT and re-set the valve timing on that cylinder as Pete.L suggested and as I have stated here:- http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8326 It may be that one cylinder is still timed correctly, hopefully if it is it will be the front one, as the rear is easier to get to. One thing to be careful with is to make sure you keep the cam chain fairly taut when resetting the valve timing, just so it doesn't jamb up at the bottom of the crankshaft.
As Pete said get back to us if or when you need more advice.
Chris.
PS. Looking at your last question. If when you tried to start the bike after you changed the CCT's the engine didn't turn over at all (in other words the piston was already in contact with the valves) you may be lucky and no valves got bent
So yes it is definitely a good idea to re-set the valve timing first and see if it will start up, then take it from there. There's no point in taking off cylinder heads just yet -
chris300hills
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:21 pm
- Location: Hampshire
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chris300hills
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:21 pm
- Location: Hampshire
Pete/Chris,
I know its been weeks since you last gave me some advice on the above problem but I have been away and only just now able to get back in the garage.
Have removed both cam covers and can see that the problem is with the rear cylinder. The cam lobes on the exhaust valves are the only ones pushing down and the cam chain looks as tho it has jumped off the top sprockets. However not sure what to do next. Have removed the rear CCT but how do I now reset the valve timing? I can't turn the engine until I can get the valve(s) out of the way. Pete says just remove the cam chain from the sprockets and the valves should retract but how do I do this? Can I just remove the top cam chain guide? Please tell me I don't have to remove the cam shaft.
As ever, awaiting the benefit of your wisdom and knowledge so I can make some progress.
Chris
I know its been weeks since you last gave me some advice on the above problem but I have been away and only just now able to get back in the garage.
Have removed both cam covers and can see that the problem is with the rear cylinder. The cam lobes on the exhaust valves are the only ones pushing down and the cam chain looks as tho it has jumped off the top sprockets. However not sure what to do next. Have removed the rear CCT but how do I now reset the valve timing? I can't turn the engine until I can get the valve(s) out of the way. Pete says just remove the cam chain from the sprockets and the valves should retract but how do I do this? Can I just remove the top cam chain guide? Please tell me I don't have to remove the cam shaft.
As ever, awaiting the benefit of your wisdom and knowledge so I can make some progress.
Chris
Hi Chris,
The good news is the problem appears to be with the rear cylinder, which is much more accessible than the front one.
You may have to remove the top cam chain guide as you mentioned, if the chain has become jambed up under it. Also with that guide removed it will be easier to reset the valve timing. Make sure you put an old rag over the cam chain tunnel before removing that horizontal bolt holding the guide, you don't want extra work by dropping it down into the engine.
Also when you come to re-aligning the valve timing marks, make sure you keep the cam chain fairly taught, so that it can't drop of the crankshaft sprocket and jamb up.
Your best option for setting up the valve timing (once you've released the rear cams) will be to set the front cylinder up first, then rotate the engine 270 degrees (three quarters of a turn) ANTI-CLOCKWISE, at that point line up the RT mark on the end of the crank and then go about lining up the rear camshafts, as stated in this link:- http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8326
Hope that helps,
Chris.
The good news is the problem appears to be with the rear cylinder, which is much more accessible than the front one.
You may have to remove the top cam chain guide as you mentioned, if the chain has become jambed up under it. Also with that guide removed it will be easier to reset the valve timing. Make sure you put an old rag over the cam chain tunnel before removing that horizontal bolt holding the guide, you don't want extra work by dropping it down into the engine.
Also when you come to re-aligning the valve timing marks, make sure you keep the cam chain fairly taught, so that it can't drop of the crankshaft sprocket and jamb up.
Your best option for setting up the valve timing (once you've released the rear cams) will be to set the front cylinder up first, then rotate the engine 270 degrees (three quarters of a turn) ANTI-CLOCKWISE, at that point line up the RT mark on the end of the crank and then go about lining up the rear camshafts, as stated in this link:- http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8326
Hope that helps,
Chris.