Clutch conversion

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benny hedges
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by benny hedges »

tony.mon wrote: Wonder if the Blackbird one fits, and if so, whether their owner's forum have ever had the same issues?
well the sp1 does it on hard launches.... though it doesnt wheely so much as dig in and pull your arms off lol.
never had this issue on any other bike though, and ive always been one for mistreating my machinery :roll:

so bearing in mind the sp has a different master cylinder, braided hoses, different clutch... but afaik it uses the same slave cylinder - maybe someone can confirm that?

also, the master cylinders i have on mine are flat ones from a cbx750f1 so again, rules out the mc
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AMCQ46
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by AMCQ46 »

Mine was really bad as you will remember, it would grab hot or cold and the key factor was how much torque I was passing through the clutch.

It would slip all day at 10% throttle and then with it still slipping, and the clutch lever in exactly the same position ( so nothing to do with lever speed or stiction or lag) I could start to open the throttle more, to about 20%.... then scrrrech, bang, grab, wheelie it would lock.

Replaced the full clutch with one off the spare engine, but didn't touch the push rod or the slave cyl, and it is cured. I can ride the clutch in traffic and lift the throttle up to any level and it still slips controlably :thumbup:

The only worn part of the clutch I removed was the actuating top hat that transfers the movement of the pushrod to the thrust bearing....that was the only clue I could find, but perhaps mine was a different issue, as it was seriously crap
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tony.mon
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by tony.mon »

I had some clutches on the bench yesterday, and was sorting through to have a look at potential wear issues, especially the top hat thrust bearing.
But then I noticed this:
Image

Almost all of the clutches (I had five to choose from) had worn grooves into the spring stems, where the coils of the spring had been in contact with the inside edge.
If the spring settles into the grooves, it won't release smoothly....

This seems to be caused because although the spring fits the column fairly well at the inner end, the actual washer under the bolt which holds the spring in place allows the spring to slip sideways; and because the post is tapered it allows the spring to move out under centrifugal/centripetal force.
When the spring does this, as the clutch is at rest (not pulled in) then the spring is free to slide over it's post.

But as engine speed increases, during clutch slip, during a hard launch, the forces acting on the spring push it outwards against the post, and at the point where the spring is reaching bite point it slips into the grooves with a sudden movement, leading to more engagement- clutch locking up and a graunching noise.

All theory, of course, but one of the clutch centres has almost no wear, and so I've fitted the unworn clutch centre, and will refit the standard MC and slave cylinder to see if it slips. (I had previously converted the clutch to a hybrid hydraulic/cable operation using a Varadero clutch cover).

If it doesn't slip, then I may have found the answer. :think: :thumbup:

A possible solution would be to:
a. file the inner edges of the post smooth- drawback is that you can't repeat this indefinitely, it would weaken the post slightly, mean taking the clutch cover off regularly, and allow even more movement for the spring.
b. find a hard metal section of tube to slide over each post, between the spring and the post. Length would have to be short enough not to compromise full compression.
c. Fit a stepped washer, with a smaller diameter section which fits into the spring to hold it in position relative to the bolt head- disadvantage is that there may not be enough clearance between the washer and tip of the post, if it fouls it would again compromise spring travel
d. fit a dished washer, with an outer lip that captured the top of the spring and held it concentric with the fixing bolt.

D looks to be the best option for a permanent solution.

Anyone else got a spare clutch they can inspect, and let us know if this is a common wear issue?

All comments on the theory welcome, as ever.
Last edited by tony.mon on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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KarlosVTR
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by KarlosVTR »

does 'D' involve a top hat that holds the spring on a little post type arrangement? ive knocked this up to see if its what you mean

Image

the o/d meets the original, the i/d is as original and the spigot locats on the post and the spring locates on the spigot o/d

is that what you mean? depending how far down its killing the post, the spigot may need to be fairly long
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AMCQ46
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by AMCQ46 »

I will have a look at my old "grabbing" clutch tonight, it is still under the work bench
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tony.mon
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by tony.mon »

KarlosVTR wrote:does 'D' involve a top hat that holds the spring on a little post type arrangement? ive knocked this up to see if its what you mean

Image

the o/d meets the original, the i/d is as original and the spigot locats on the post and the spring locates on the spigot o/d

is that what you mean? depending how far down its killing the post, the spigot may need to be fairly long
That's what I had in mind for "C".

A "D" solution is a washer of slightly larger diameter than the standard one; with an outer edge turned down to just surround the first 1mm of the spring outer edge.
It would capture the spring and hold it concentric (but not touching) the post over which it slides.

Sorry, can't do the pc piccy thing well, or I'd knock up an illustration.
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KarlosVTR
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by KarlosVTR »

if you shroud the post you will gain more in terms of protection. saying that, chrome plating it will give it a nice hard surface to slide on instead of digging in to super soft ally

a shroud or cup will only stop the top from moving about when the middle is where the problem lies i reckon.

so maybe a hard finish like chrome or Ti Nitride will wok better. probably not as cheap though
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benny hedges
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by benny hedges »

or fit some plastic springs that wont dig in the metal :)
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AMCQ46
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by AMCQ46 »

Had a look at the grabby clutch and as the photo shows, the male post have no rubbing marks on them.
Image

But then I looked at the clutch pressure plate which is the female guide for the springs and guess what? Lots of evidence of contact with the springs!
Image

So you might be onto something with this spring contact problem, but how to test for it?
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TonyW650
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by TonyW650 »

Tony.mom
Where did you get the xl1000 varadaro cover from, Ive been thinking about the clutch/sprocket cover from as Ive been hunting for one and cant find one.
I just prefer a cable clutch, all my other bikes have got them and dont seem to have a issue with them.
just want to try it and see what happens
tony
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MacV2
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by MacV2 »

TonyW650 wrote:Tony.mom
Where did you get the xl1000 varadaro cover from, Ive been thinking about the clutch/sprocket cover from as Ive been hunting for one and cant find one.
I just prefer a cable clutch, all my other bikes have got them and dont seem to have a issue with them.
just want to try it and see what happens
tony
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tony.mon
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by tony.mon »

tONY w650|:
Ebay, but try the Varadero site for anyone breaking one; otherwise have a phone round the breakers.

Re clutches, unless others also have a swapped-out grabby clutch they can check, all we can do is wait until someone has a grabby clutch problem, then swap the parts for non-grooved ones, and see if the problem goes away.

That's what I'm doing, but it'll take a few more experiments to prove/disprove the theory.
And then we have to find a workround or solution. Like the idea of hard-chroming both parts, though.
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spider13
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by spider13 »

would it not be easier to get mail and femail sleeves made up as with the hard chroming i think you might find youll have a bit of a job getting the clutch plates to fit back in the basket due to the amount of excess metel being put on,but dont quote me just a thought,i might be wrong
steve
tony.mon
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by tony.mon »

Sleeves to go over the posts will be awkward as the posts taper; sleeves fitted into the wells might be easier, going round the outside of the spring but holding it central.

However as the springs are compressed I would have thought that their outside diameter also increases; they'd "bulge" a bit it the middle.
A sleeve might actually have the opposite effect...

Might be worth seeing if other clutches fit.
Anyone got a local breaker with a few minutes on their hands?

For starters, the SP1 clutch fits the shaft and mounting/locating dowels perfectly well. (It won't clear the Storm clutch cover, though)
I'm not suggesting this as a solution, as apparently the SP1's suffer form the same fault, but if that fits, I'm sure others will, too.
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spider13
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Re: Clutch conversion

Post by spider13 »

i would think there should be a couple of clutches the same,maybe the early blades
steve
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