FRANCE

[sirch345]

I know people like to blame religion for certain atrocities, although I have a different view on this.
To me it's not religion that's to blame, it's people. People who can't accept that another human being can have a different opinion to their own, that's where the problem lies IMHO,

Chris.

[Mav617]

I know people like to blame religion for certain atrocities, although I have a different view on this.
To me it's not religion that's to blame, it's people. People who can't accept that another human being can have a different opinion to their own, that's where the problem lies IMHO,

Chris.

But Islam is an intolerant religion. Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. Verse 9:33 tells Muslims that Allah has charted them to make Islam "superior over all religions." This chapter was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

[KermitLeFrog]

You can take selected quotes from any religion and it's books, the Bible, Torah, Koran; whatever, to say whatever you want to say (at the time). Whilst religion gives comfort to many people it's primary purpose historically is subgudation. To keep the plebs under control and doing what you want them to do. With a different interpretation Islam can be a benficial and kind philosophy.

The REAL problem in the world, Christian, Jewish, Muslim; is the fact that inequality, always present, is, due to technological advancement, more obvious to the people at the bottom of the pile.

Not sure what the answer is, if even there is one. The people in power will use these things to advance their own ends and there's little we can do about it.

[VTRDark]

Everything is a play on words...it's how those words are interoperated and acted upon that matters. A terrorist could be us for going to war or it could be them for going to war. Politics could be a religion as people follow and believe in it. There are people who convince and indoctrinate other people that things are and should be just so. Theses people have various reasons for doing so. Other people see that they can utilise those who have been convinced and or indoctrinated. Unless you are very careful you will find yourself used or using to varying degrees. This affects nearly everyone at sometime or another during their life, if you truly manage to free yourself from this state you can easily find yourself alone, a Black sheep and then those who lost you will label you as mad or psychotic and lock you up or worse as you are then a threat to their ideology and control.

'Life is one big hallucination'

[KermitLeFrog]

Everything is a play on words...it's how those words are interoperated and acted upon that matters. A terrorist could be us for going to war or it could be them for going to war. Politics could be a religion as people follow and believe in it. There are people who convince and indoctrinate other people that things are and should be just so. Theses people have various reasons for doing so. Other people see that they can utilise those who have been convinced and or indoctrinated. Unless you are very careful you will find yourself used or using to varying degrees. This affects nearly everyone at sometime or another during their life, if you truly manage to free yourself from this state you can easily find yourself alone, a Black sheep and then those who lost you will label you as mad or psychotic and lock you up or worse as you are then a threat to their ideology and control.

'Life is one big hallucination'

+1

[Mav617]

Everything is a play on words...it's how those words are interoperated and acted upon that matters. A terrorist could be us for going to war or it could be them for going to war. Politics could be a religion as people follow and believe in it. There are people who convince and indoctrinate other people that things are and should be just so. Theses people have various reasons for doing so. Other people see that they can utilise those who have been convinced and or indoctrinated. Unless you are very careful you will find yourself used or using to varying degrees. This affects nearly everyone at sometime or another during their life, if you truly manage to free yourself from this state you can easily find yourself alone, a Black sheep and then those who lost you will label you as mad or psychotic and lock you up or worse as you are then a threat to their ideology and control.

'Life is one big hallucination'

There's 84 people in Nice would quite like to continue "living the dream" I think you'll find Carl. Marty's question was what has France done to deserve this - and the answer is to try and treat radical Muslims as though they are rational, trustworthy and not a time bomb (that is radical muslims, not all of them are, yet)

[StormingHonda]

I don't understand the comment about "no love lost between Britain and France" - I've never had any problems over there and we co-operate on many things.
Today also saw the funeral of Jo Cox. Whilst there is a difference in scale, her murderer is described as a "loner with mental difficulties". Had he been a Muslim and attracted to the perverted course of Islamist Fundamentalism, he'd have been labelled as a terrorist. He shouted "Britain First" as he shot and stabbed her, but that neo Nazi group hasn't been shut down.
Being a loner with mental problems isn't limited to white people. A similar individual will hang their murderous tendencies on whatever label suits them. Just look at the shooting of the cops in Dallas - should all Black people in the States be "put on a list" like Trump wants for Muslims?
I'm totally secular and anti-religious and I think the French have been absolutely spot on with trying to remain a secular nation.
Finally, some of the victims of this crazed individual were also Muslims.

Then mental health issues must be really high in the Islamic world, when are people like you going to stop making excuses for a rotten ( most rotten out the three rotten fairy tales ) religion?, and yes in war when you kill innocents its called collateral damage, in the eyes of the killer they were either martyred or getting what they deserve rubbing shoulders with the infidels.

As for the French, never had an issue with the French, I weren't around when we did and the last time I checked we were fighting on the same side in the last two big one's.

[redpig]

C'mon now enough with the sexual innuendos, this is a serious subject.
By the way, I am a loner with mental health problems but I don't have the urge to kill people, well maybe not all of the time.

[Wicky]

Islamic extremists motivated to carry out suicide attcks have been generally disinfranchinsed petty criminals who have been radicalised or have self-radicalised from IS propaganda into something close to nihilistic.

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

Except for the loyalties to other hardcore religous extremists and extreme beliefs in something 'greater' than themselves (hardcore religous interpretations of Islam) to do what they do ultimately kamikaze/ disposable footsoldiers like to some religious inspired ideal that we mainly left behind but is is still readily apparent when even our relatively recent wars all seek church backing and have elements of self-sacrifice in conflict for country and fellows, and festivals of remembrance of such.

[Wicky]

Intersting insights on radicalisation in France. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827245

I wonder how places in UK like Luton are doing - as when working there in the 90s it was quite a riot from 2nd generation disillusioned youths struggling to find their idendity - caught between their parents / community values and Western society's.

The challenge in trying to wean troubled youths off radicalism, Mr Bekri adds, is that it confers "religious virginity" on young offenders. They are easily convinced that they are doing God's work when they steal from infidels.
This redemption is all the more tempting when it provides an aura girls find attractive, Mr Bekri says. "You become Prince Charming."
While radicalisation often feeds on male dreams of military glory, for girls it typically involves fantasies of romance and humanitarian work.

Victimhood
By 2012, says Brigitte Erbibou of Entr'Autres, a sense of identity based on grievance had become common. "People were talking about conspiracies, the 'American-Zionist axis', she says. "They were openly taking anti-Semitic, anti-Western positions.

"In the old days," she says, "the mothers of my pupils were modern women. They never wore veils. Now the children do. The mothers wear veils as well, and tell me it's because their sons demand it.""

[StormingHonda]

Intersting insights on radicalisation in France. > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36827245

I wonder how places in UK like Luton are doing - as when working there in the 90s it was quite a riot from 2nd generation disillusioned youths struggling to find their idendity - caught between their parents / community values and Western society's.

The challenge in trying to wean troubled youths off radicalism, Mr Bekri adds, is that it confers "religious virginity" on young offenders. They are easily convinced that they are doing God's work when they steal from infidels.
This redemption is all the more tempting when it provides an aura girls find attractive, Mr Bekri says. "You become Prince Charming."
While radicalisation often feeds on male dreams of military glory, for girls it typically involves fantasies of romance and humanitarian work.

Victimhood
By 2012, says Brigitte Erbibou of Entr'Autres, a sense of identity based on grievance had become common. "People were talking about conspiracies, the 'American-Zionist axis', she says. "They were openly taking anti-Semitic, anti-Western positions.

"In the old days," she says, "the mothers of my pupils were modern women. They never wore veils. Now the children do. The mothers wear veils as well, and tell me it's because their sons demand it.""

The solution is easy, we get these preachers or whoever are putting these twisted ideals of Islam and put them in prison and if they are a refugee we deport them straight away, no questions asked, then what we do we impose western cultures, value and ideals into these community and if they don't like it, then don't let the door hit you on the way out.

One country, one identity one culture, yes you can choose your religion but the rules are plain, if you don't like it go somewhere that suits you better. I think enough people have been divided and died in this country over the centuries because of religion, no more.

[Wicky]

The solution is easy, we get these preachers or whoever are putting these twisted ideals of Islam and put them in prison and if they are a refugee we deport them straight away, no questions asked,

Effort has been put in over the years to do what you suggest with preachers and to get the muslim communtities to self-poilce what goes on. However with stopping them going to Syria it still doesn't stop indivuals using the the internet which is awash both indirect IS propaganda i.e what the news reports or indirect what IS releases on the interweb / social media. Do you shut down the internet? increase funding to GCHQ. MI5 & MI6 greater surveillance

then what we do we impose western cultures, value and ideals into these community and if they don't like it, then don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Define Western culture value and ideals and how would you impose them uniformly from John O'Groats to Land's End - some kind of Tebbit test of national sporting loyalty? Heck a few years back I went to see England v Hungary in a friendly footy match and I cheered every goal - should I be deported even though I was born here and have a British passport. Folk of carribean roots living (1st , 2nd even 3rd generation) here I'm sure still support the West Indies and cheer them on and wear their tops would they fall foul of your culture test...

Would the culture, values & ideals be maintained & enforced by Culture Poilce along the lines of the Iranian 'Morality Police' and would while they are at it stamp down on extermes like chav culture, fox hunting leaving white middle class culture, ideals & values as the accepted norm. (and is motorcycle culture acceptable as some sectors of society would like to do away with us with our dirty noisy motorbikes and non conformist lifestyle and heavy metal music...)

One country, one identity one culture, yes you can choose your religion but the rules are plain, if you don't like it go somewhere that suits you better. I think enough people have been divided and died in this country over the centuries because of religion, no more.

But Britain has multiple identities and culture - ask the Welsh, Scots and Cornish folk. But you won't stop anyone from being a practicing Muslim but you'd prohibit Muslim culture (do you know much about Islamic art and architecture?) Is St George acceptable (born in Turkey; his mother was Palestinian. He's so multicultural we have to share him with Lithuania, Portugal, Germany, Greece, Georgia, Moscow, Istanbul, Beirut - and Palestine itself)

I don't think your prescription of an easy solution is as quite as easy as you make out - but the Hungarians used a bacon sandwich test to sort out muslims from the population that had settled a few centuries back. Basically if they ate the pork they could stay and if not... well then the innocent vegetarians also got booted out as well! ;-)

[agentpineapple]

I don't think your prescription of an easy solution is as quite as easy as you make out - but the Hungarians used a bacon sandwich test to sort out muslims from the population that had settled a few centuries back. Basically if they ate the pork they could stay and if not... well then the innocent vegetarians also got booted out as well! ;-)

I have a new found respect for Hungarians......

[Kev L]

I don't think your prescription of an easy solution is as quite as easy as you make out - but the Hungarians used a bacon sandwich test to sort out muslims from the population that had settled a few centuries back. Basically if they ate the pork they could stay and if not... well then the innocent vegetarians also got booted out as well! ;-)

I have a new found respect for Hungarians......

Only because you would have devoured all the bacon sandwiches!
Sorry for the childish interruptions, please continue with your intriguing debate.

[bigtwinthing]

In Jamaica they eat Beer cans! (just say it in a Jamaican accent ) Religion is a word banded around to cover Murderous intent all over the World. Iam glad iam a bloody atheist and can see through all that baldrocks. Suicide bombing and Driving trucks at innocents is simply cowardice.

I could happily be employed shooting these odd bar stewards to stop unnecessary killings in the name of Religion.

I have simple rules. If you go and live in another country you have to adopt there virtues and speak the language within 12 months, or your OUT.

I was watching a programme on Mexico borders etc. 1 Guy was trying to get US Citizenship for 7 years. He couldn't speak any english. Keep him in Mexico.