Engine rebuild

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tony.mon
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm
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Engine rebuild

Post by tony.mon »

As I may have mentioned, I have a spare engine (low compression on front cylinder, wasn't head or valves so it'll be piston, bore or rings).

I plan to rebuild it with high-compression pistons, do something with the cams and gasflow the heads myself (more of a polish, really, as I don't intend to remove or replace any material, just a clean up.

Lately I have been unemployed, so have had time but no money. I'm just starting a new job, so will have money but no time.
But today's my last day of weekday freedom, so i thought I'd see what preparation and planning I could get done.

I also had chats with Roger, and Bob Farnham (local well-recommended engine builder) about what work would get a decent result, any pitfalls to avoid etc.

I was advised not to try to gasflow my own heads, as material removal can slow down the gas flow sufficiently that it reduces power, because the gas stops and starts in the inlet tracts especially.
I'm not planning to try to re-profile the heads, just polish and remove casting flash and irregularities, TBH, so I've decided to have a go, especially as I've already bought the flex drive, grinding stones etc.
I have spare heads , pistons and cams, so if I don't like the effects of any changes I can change back any time I want.
I've found some pistons, JE:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... K:MEWAX:IT

which don't seem too extreme, or too expensive.
The price varies depending on the exchange rate, but is roughly £155-160 a pair, with rings, pins and clips.
Plus about £30-40 import tax.

Still on budget, so once I get some cash I'll get these ordered.

Next, cams.
I've done some digging, and have found these, along with their specs, measurements etc:

Open/Close/Cam Lift (mm)/ Lobe Centre/Duration

KENT:
IN::BTDC 22/ABDC 54/10.36/106 (256 deg. duration)
EX::BBDC 60/ATDC 28/10.56/
106 (268 deg. duration)


MORIWAKI:
IN::BTDC 22/ABDC 53/10.3/105.5 (255 deg. duration)
Ex::BBDC 53/ATDC 16/10.1/108.5 (249 deg. duration)

YOSHIMURA:
IN::BTDC 17/ABDC 53/10.7/108 (250 deg duration)
EX::BBDC 55/ATDC 15/10.7/110 (250 deg. duration)

Stock
IN::20/45/?/102.5 (245 deg. duration)
EX::50/15/?/107.5 (245 deg. duration)

From RollingAlong's post in Superhawk forum:
IN::?/?/10.16/? (249 deg. duration measured)
EX::/?/?/11.0/ (272 deg. duration (measured)

http://www.superhawkforum.com/forums/sh ... php?t=6634

You can see that I've found several makers of cams I have found that list VTR's as part of their range,; there may be others.
But I also wondered if it was possible to re-profile the standard ones.
As thery're not case or surface hardened, but hardened all the way through this is possible; all I need is a cam-grinder.
This bit of machinery is a bit above budget, so I contacted Kent Cams (based near Folkestone, Kent) to see what they thought.
They are't able to help with a regrind, and haven't any dyno specs or power improvements for their own cams, and also say that theirs are likely to boost peak hp figure sat the top end of the rev range but at the expense of torque.
Now, I like a bit of torque, so I'm after keeping that if I can, so I've ruled theirs out.


But it's a funny old world, and when I was on my way up to the Mayday Run a couple of weeks back I noticed a company sign for Newman Cams, in Farnborough, Kent.
Never heard of them, so I sent them an e-mail and they were most helpful; suggested I drop by for a chat, which I did today.
Even funnier old world, the owner lives about two miles from my house- go figure.

I took a set of Honda cams over to him along with the info printed above, and we had a long discussion about what might be possible.
This seems worth a try, as he said he'll charge me about £25 per cam (£100/set) so it's most definitely affordable.
This includes replacement core plugs, as these will have to be removed from the camshafts to mount them on the machine.
He's going to grind the base circle about 1mm lower, leave about .5mm more lift, and widen the duration on both inlet and exhaust.
I'll have to get the cam sprockets slotted so I can adjust them - called "degreeing them in", and I'll need to find out more about this process before I can fit them).

If they're no good, I'll have to try to buy some that work.

Lastly I dropped in on HM Racing, in Orpington, who have a dyno and a good operator; they set up my Factory Pro jet kit.

I spoke to them because I want to do several dyno runs so that I can see what effect each mod has, and to make sure that I don;t get a benefit with one mod which is then cancelled out by another.

So I'll need a baseline run, then (without re-jetting, or changing any other settings) do one thing at a time, and dyno it again before doing the next thing.
It'll be more expensive, but it's the only way of making sure that each thing I do is measurable on its own.

They are happy to do the work, but suggest that I use a "control" rear wheel and tyre, as the rolling radius of a tyre as it wears, the grip it gives and the tyre pressures etc affect the dyno reading.
Ideally I keep a spare rear wheel and tyre just to put on, ride to the dyno and test it, then remove it and fit my normal wheel back on.
So I'll post in the "sales and wants" to see if anyone will lend me a rear wheel and old tyre to use for the project; I'll return it once the work's all complete.

I'd like to tackle the jobs in the following order:
Pistons
Gasflow Heads
Cams.
Reason being is that in order to install the pistons it's much easier to work on the engine out of the frame, and I don't want to take the engine in and out more than I have to.
However, I can't afford the pistons straight off, so I'll probably have to assemble the engine with a spare standard front piston, assuming that the bore's ok, and do them in the order:
Cams (because I'll be able to afford to collect them end June)
Gasflow Heads (which I can do any time)
Pistons (which will have to wait until later in the summer, unless I win the lottery).

The benefit with doing things in this order is that I can measure the valve/piston clearances just once, with the higher-lift cams in place.
I could then (if I think it's needed) skim the heads to increase compression still further, and make sure that the pistons have the optimum clearance from the heads.

I'm not trying to become an engine builder, as I strongly feel that that would turn a hobby that I love into a job, and take away most of the enjoyment. But I do believe in sharing information, because what goes around comes around, hence the recent workshop day.

But hopefully I will be able to keep adding updates to this thread with dyno evidence, and it'll be possible for others to see what benefits each mod has, and whether you might want to do these yourself.
And once it's done, and the jetting has been re-adjusted to give the best power outputs I'll run it up the drag strip to get some 1/4 mile times, currently the best I've managed are 11.6's and if after all this money and work I can't break into the tens I'm sulking big time......

All contributions gratefully accepted, parts, opinions, or financial if you can assist.
I'll be happy to let contributors to the project have a ride after it's finished, if that helps at all.

Oh, and once the cam grinds are done, (assuming that there are positive benefits) I'll be able to offer an exchange service for usable standard cams. Chances are that we'll need thicker shims, whether the shim thicknesses are available from Honda at those sizes I don't yet know; I'll have to wait until I check the valve clearances.

Piccy's so far:

Spare engines:
Image

And this month's new toy, a lovely Engine Stand for £40 from Machine Mart:
Image
Last edited by tony.mon on Fri May 14, 2010 3:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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RAINMAKER
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by RAINMAKER »

In a Galaxey far far away................don't miss next epsiode of this thrilling adventure.......................actually I'm seriously impressed. :thumbup: ........I just cocked up putting new taps on the bath.................What you are planning is just way beyond most of us mortals, except mayby PeteL aka SP Pete (two timer :think: )
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pariah
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by pariah »

Nice idea Tony, ...... Do you actually get time to ride the bike :D :D :D :D
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MacV2
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by MacV2 »

Nice work Tony good luck wiyh all that!

I have a spare rear wheel your welcome to borrow & its not too far away either! 30 mins along A2 from M25! PM me for details.

Oh & good luck with the new job!!

Mac
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
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benny hedges
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by benny hedges »

sounds like a plan :thumbup:
what kind of £ were the yosh and moriwaki cams????

i reckon adding fi would be a worthwhile mod as well :think: would definately make the most out of dyno time...
You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when posting something which you later rely on in quote. Anything you do say may be ripped to sh*t.
tony.mon
Posts: 16147
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Norf Kent

Re: Engine rebuild

Post by tony.mon »

Fi?
I might as well just give in and buy an SP1 or 2, which was an option, but I'd rather play against the prevailing wind this time out.

Probably more sensible, but :whatever :confused :eek2 :wink: :( :) :D

Let's see what's possible with what I've got......
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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warby221
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by warby221 »

Tiss fun isn’t it
The heads I just smoothed everything out inside the ports on mine the shape and size on a bikes pretty good to start with. Don’t polish them to a mirror finish it can slow down the air flow with stagnant air that clings to the port with what’s called boundary effect. Effectively making the port smaller

With the cams be careful you don’t go to small on the base circle as you could find it’s not possible to shim the valves I have a full set of shims Here I can let you know what the biggest is if you want
Find out what kind of surface hardening there going to use on the cams to bikes are notorious for the ramp speeds on the cam and could wear though the hardening bloody fast

About 130hp is your lot after that think about strengthening the frame but before that think about the cooling it can be a bit marginal on a slightly tuned bike.
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MacV2
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by MacV2 »

Your PM is returned Sir. :thumbup:
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seb421
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by seb421 »

i saw some cosworth pistons for the firestorm for sale other day on ebay, dunno if there any good?
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tony.mon
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by tony.mon »

I shoulda got one of those engine stands ages ago!

No back ache, everything easy to reach, much better.

Bigging it up for Machine Mart, £40 well spent.

SO I finally got the engine mounted up and stripped both heads of:
Image
Image

and found why the front pot had low compression:
Image

Exhaust valves had loads of bits of carbon on them, meaning that they weren't seating properly. Piston crowns aren't too grubby, but maybe it's been running rich- who knows?
I'd just lap them in, but the contact area is about 3-4mm wide, far too much for my liking and so I''ll have the head down to Bob Farnham's or HM Racing to have the valve seats re-cut to a nice 5-angle.
I'll strip the rear head tomorrow and check that, if it needs the same I'll have the pair done.

While I was there I wriggled the pistons about to see what slack there was-found a worrying amount of side-to-side movement, and about the same front-to -back.

So I had a look at an old engine I had, which was dyno'd at 110 BHP fairly shortly before a bearing went- and it was the same.
So I'll check the permissible clearances, but it's for sure more clearance than I expected to find.

No visible wear in the bores, but I'll measure, just in case......
I know there's more in an air-cooled engine but was expecting a better tolerance in a water-cooled lump, albeit a vee-twin. (bigger Aluminium alloy pistons expand more proportionally to the steel cylinders around them).

It'll be interesting to see what clearance the high-comp replacements have.

The cams are due back from the cam-grinder, and at last I'm working so have money to spend, so game on.......

More soon :thumbup:
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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sirch345
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by sirch345 »

Keep up the good work Tony :thumbup:
I like your new engine stand. What exactly happened to your cylinder head to cause low compression :?: I can't quite work it out from your photo, unless it's a hole in the water jacket.

Chris.
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cunningstunt
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by cunningstunt »

Is the engine stand in front of the idiosyncrasies you have in the garage?
would make more use of a set of butt sliders these days
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benny hedges
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by benny hedges »

sirch345 wrote:What exactly happened to your cylinder head to cause low compression :?: I can't quite work it out from your photo, unless it's a hole in the water jacket.

Chris.
me either. looks like its made of mercury or that stuff terminator 2 is made of. :roll:
You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when posting something which you later rely on in quote. Anything you do say may be ripped to sh*t.
tony.mon
Posts: 16147
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm
Location: Norf Kent

Re: Engine rebuild

Post by tony.mon »

Update:
Well, it wasn't the vale seats, although that wasn't ever going to help, it was the piston to bore clearance.
And the more engines I check (I have three at the moment) the more I'm concerned with the clearance, because although it's a max .2mm as spec I'm seeing more than that- visible amounts of movement front-to-back and side-to-side.

At a guess (but I'll measure for sure later) between .5 and 1.0 mm.

However, the original machining marks are still visible on the piston skirts, and the bore has no wear marks, or step above where the rings go.

SO I'm wondering, did Honda just build these with lots of clearance?

Secondly, I gave the cams to a local company who said they could do something but have had them for a couple of months and all I get is promises of "next week". So maybe I'll have to dig deep and get some Moriwaki's after all.

Either way, don't care 'cause I've just ordered the 11.5 to 1pistons from somewhere in California.
Only £103 wife-pounds, bargain.


Game on!
:D
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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Phil-VTwin
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Re: Engine rebuild

Post by Phil-VTwin »

tony.mon wrote: Only £103 wife-pounds

So thats about £206 then? or do you use a different system that i used to do?

:lol:
Ride Safe
Phil
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