Familiar symptoms to anyone?

[Fozzie]

Ok,

Finally finished putting the bike together tonight after replacing two front valves and a rear head and thought i'd take it for a test ride. Bit tough to start but it has been left for two weeks and the bike alarm LED was looking pretty dim. Anyway initially the revs at idle were around 500 and it kept stalling. So i gave it some revs and up'd the idle. As I was out I found I had these problems:

Engine/Exhausts getting quite hot (although gauge shows normal)

Dip in power at 5/6k and wont go above 7k

Lots of vibration (as in when stationary my head judders!)

Laboured starting. (turns over maybe 1-2 times a sec instead of the old 3-4 times when hitting the start button)

Doesnt seem to have as much grunt (used to want to wheelie when opened in 1st but now nothing)

Now my thought for the first problem is an airlock somewhere, that or i didnt notice how hot it got before, but could all these things be related? After scouring the forum could these all be down to being 180 degrees off on the cam timing? I was convinced I set it up right but with a 9 month old to entertain while trying to fix a bike i might have got it wrong. The vibration wasnt there before the cam chain slipped but I dont know if the vibration can be caused by being 180 degs off. I will try and check this sunday for pinched hoses and connections. Could the cam chains be too tight?

Any help would be good as im convinced my missus will cut off my knackers if I have to spend much more time/money on this bike! (she needs me to sell my old bike too)

[benny hedges]

FE FI FO FUM m8 you have set the timing 180 degrees out - i take it you used a haynes manual lol!

at the flywheel, ft_ mark, the FE should be on the left, the FI mark should be on the right. (looking at the bike on the left side)
then 3/4 turn anticlockwise, the rt_ mark should align with the casing line and the RE mark should be on the left (looking at the bike from the right side)
the marks should be on the far left and far right of the cam wheels, not the middle, and not upside down.
*ed - sorry i confused left & right sides of the bike - probably why i fall off so much lol - corrected it now, sorry if you ended up leaning over to look at the marks lol

i suspect at this point the re & ri marks will be facing each other, in the middle

undo the tensioner, remove the camchain guide in the middle, and reset it as detailed in sirch's guide in the workshop.
basically at the stage you are at after the check above, you will only need to reset the rear head which is a piece of piss to do.
lift the back of the cams off their journal after removing the top cap and just jog them round 180 degrees until they line up properly, replace the cam top bearing casing, finger tighten the cct and recheck by revolving the flywheel by hand a million times.

to summarise, tank off, airbox off, carbs off, heatshield off, cam covers off, timing caps off the flywheel cover, spin to FT_ mark, check FE and FI face away from each other, right way up, on the far left & right, cam lobes pointing outwards, 10past 10.
spin 3/4 turn / 270 degrees, and check the RE and FE marks align, away from each other, right way up, not in the middle, cam lobes facing diagonally toward each other.

from the rear cylinder, align the RT_ mark on the flywheel, thr RE & RI marks align with the head, away from each other, cams facing inward, turn anticlockwise 1 1/4 turn, 450 degrees, check the FT_ mark lines up with the cover line, then the FE & FI marks on the cam gear will be far left, far right, cams facing outwards etc.... you get the picture...

this is a very common mistake to make, should be no damage done apart from wasted fuel and time!

[Fozzie]

Ok thanks for the input I shall try resetting the timing tomorrow. Maybe it's the long shift I've just done or the crap day I've had, but what are the differences between this and the Haynes manual? Think I'm either missing something or I've lost the ability to read and therefore can't put my finger on what's different between the two.

[tony.mon]

In a nutshell, if you start with the rear head and time that, then set the front one the Haynes leads you believe that you stop rotating the engine (anti) when you see the FT mark.
Actually, you ignore it the first time you see it, and continue another full crankshaft rotation; that's the correct place for the front pot timing.
Haynes isn't very clear on this, most people get it wrong once before ignoring the book....

[benny hedges]

anyone spotted any more mistakes in the haynes manual???
like valve clearances??? refer to specification..... go to specification, valve clearances, refer to section 1, go to section 1, valve clearances, refer to specification..... etc
also in the description and history section at the beginning is a load of tosh and they confuse the storm & the varadero several times.

haynes manuals - cannot be beaten.
well i can assure you that mine has been beaten a few times, with my copper lump hammer
throw it in the bin and use the tips here from people who have actually done the job. and copy the workshop manual from the workshop link.

[Fozzie]

Cheers for all the help, it was the cams being out. Fixed it and it ran beautifully on the stand. Now I tightened the cam chains for a little play then gave it a good warm up with no nasty sounds.

On the run to work a bit of a ticking sound has started coming from the front cylinder, although I checked the valve clearances yesterday and changed the inlet shims as the gap was too small, I'll check them again when I can. Is that the most likely cause?

Edit: forgot to add, the ticking speeds up when the rpms go up but seem to disappear when accelerating gently.

[Wicky]

Aftermarket manual CCTs or OEM?

[Fozzie]

Aftermarket manual ones. It was ok when I took it for a run when the cams were out and all I've done is change the inlet shims and slackened and retightened the cam chain. I did feel a couple of thumps through the tank which I thought was splutters from the carbs as they had been on and off a lot. She still flies so I'm thinking valve gaps? I'm just paranoid now after the cam chain slipping last time. It would slip again if it was the right tension or slightly too tight? I never heard any chain slapping or squeals from the chain so I'm guessing it's not slack or too tight.

[Pete.L]

The chain normally gives a slapping noise as you decellerate around the 3.5k mark if i's a bit too slack and squeels on start up if it's too tight.
It might just be your valve buckets as you've got a bigger gap now. Might be worth checking them one more time though, just to be sure

Pete.l

[Fozzie]

Right checked the valve clearances and although they needed a little adjustment, the noise is still there. I also readjusted the CCTs but no change. It seems the noise is always away from the place im checking. What I am thinking is maybe the exhaust? I was a bit lazy when putting it back on. Having spent all my disposable income on valves, head etc I didnt replace the copper gaskets on the headers nor did I replace the gaskets in the joints, I just used a bit of locktite copper sealant I had lying around and crossed my fingers. I also might have been a little bit of a wimpy butt when tightening the header bolts as I didnt want to snap another stud.

Would blowing around the headers or that joint next to the rear shock cause a ticking? I just wondered if I can hear the exhaust valves ticking.

[Pete.L]

Yep!
Sometimes they will just tick when cold and then dissapear as the headers warm up. Put a spanner on the stud bolts and give them a tweak see if the ticking changes.

Pete.l

[benny hedges]

Put a spanner on the stud bolts and give them a tweak see if the ticking changes.

Pete.l

tip - don't do that while the engine is hot - the bolts will have expanded in length & will probably snap when the engine cools down.
good practice to fit new copper gaskets you cheapskate lol!

have you ruled out clucth rattle at low rpm>>>>?
could be you have mis-gapped one valve - 2 thou out on the gap & it will be audible, especially when cold.

[Fozzie]

Haha yeah I am a cheapskate! 2 copper gaskets = 3 pints

I tried tightening the stud nuts but didnt make any difference and I rechecked the valve clearances and made sure they were almost spot on in the middle of the recommended tolerances. Apart from the tapping noise the bike goes beautifully now, even at low rpms its super smooth, it just annoys the hell out of me. I dont think its clutch rattle as i'm pretty used to that sound on my CBR and its definately a new sound. Sounds like someone tapping a penny on the exhaust everytime gas is released although wherever I stand the location of the sound seems to move. Think I have narrowed the sound down to the rear header joint by the rear shock. The gasket inside was flaking apart and frayed so Ive got a new one and new exhaust gaskets all round just to be sure. Now i'm confronted with a new problem. The replacement rear cylinder head I bought didnt come with any stud nuts so I thought I could use one of my old ones and find a nut to fit to replace the one that was screwed. I thought I had done this but when I took off the exhaust today, it appears the 'new' nut was good for one go as the stud has ruined its thread.

Do Honda dealers keep that sort of thing in stock? Anyone have any experience? I need the bike Weds for work and living halfway between a dealership in Bournemouth and Portsmouth I was hoping they would. My faith was a little waivered when I needed shims and the last dealer I called had to order them in...

[benny hedges]

you'd probably be better going to a local engineer's merchants or fixings shop, take the stud & nut with you and get it matched up for a nice high tensile one.
avoid stainless tho cos it rots like crouton if you screw it into ally!

re the shims, when i saw what dealers charge now for single shims i just bought a 'HotCams' shim kit for £75.
if i'm feeling really kind i might do them for site members on an exchange basis.
you measure them, tell me what size you want and i'll have your old ones in exchange for new etc...
if i've got them.

[tony.mon]

Shims?

David Silvers..... £5.66 each, ouch.
I'd rather it rattled.