More clutch related woes and engine concerns

[billbofagends]

Hi folks,

After a lot of tinkering with my firestorm I have still got the following problems:

1) Clutch very late in take up. Tried: clutch slave cylinder seal/spring replacement and bleed, clean and regrease push rod. Took the clutch friction discs out and measured (all well in tolerance - 3.81 ~ 3.84mm) and clutch steel plates all 1.96mm (no measurements given in the manual other than warpage runout). Only options left I can think of: measure the clutch springs (will check that tomorrow), maybe rebuild the master cylinder and engine oil change - which has got to happen now as I've drained it to look at the clutch plates.

2) One exhaust can (ART cans fitted) seems to run louder and gets hotter quicker (left hand can). Would seem like a carb balance issue but when I tried that using the home made water manometer technique all I succeeded in doing was sucking the bit of manometer water straight in to the engine! The front cylinder has way more vaccum than the rear even when the adjustment screw is in either position... So, stripped and rebuilt carbs (no issues found with diaphragm/piston etc), inlet rubbers fine and bands secure. All other vaccum hoses seems OK too. Interestingly, it doesn't run rough, no backfires but perhaps stupidly loud (not that this is a bad thing!) ART cans maybe masking that, lol!.

3) Front cylinder seems to have a lot more "mechanical" noise. I checked the valve clearances while the carbs were off and all is good on that front. A lot of this noise seems to disappear when revs picked up slightly tho, but again, this could be down to the ART cans masking that... I have no experience of what a failing CCT sounds like or do they generally just fail without prior audible warning?

Apologies for the long post, would really like to get these niggles sorted out and start enjoying my new bike! lol. On the plus side, I have now taken most of it apart and getting know it inside out! hehe.

The bike has only done 12K miles and is a '98 model . I don't think it has done a lot of work and the clutch plates don't give the impression its suffered much abuse judging by the friction plate thickness.

So yarp, any advice would be appreciated.

Ooh, one more thing, what coolant should I use and do I really need distilled water like the manual says?

Cheers

Sam.

[sirch345]

Sam,
Here's info about anti-freeze for starters

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... t=silicate

Chris.

[benny hedges]

just a few things??
you say carb balance may be to blame for the exhaust.... it won't be that as both downpipes feed into a central collector and then branch back into l&r cans, 2-1-2 stylee.
could be one can wants repacking or has a slight airleak at the link pipes?

'when the screw is in either position'
i'd suggest you get a proper set of gauges off ebay or summat (only £20 inc pipes and adaptors for a twin set)
the adjustment screw is quite sensitive, turning it one way or the other will upset the balance one way or tother!

if it's proving impossible to get the balance right and the rear is showing a lot less vac than the front, check the vac pipe to the tank isn't damaged or perished, any leaks at all, particularly around the carb rubbers seeing as youve had them off...
best way to refit them is with a smear of vaseline both sides and do the clip up with a 8mm socket rather than with a x screwdriver - you can get them a lot tighter.

if your cct had gone you would know it had gone!
if this worries you, you need to think about preventative measures like stopper mod, new autos or manuals.
might be worth pm'ing rider on a storm and get your name down for a set of his.

the front cyl will sound a bit noisier imo cos it's not as closed in as the back one.... come the meet in wales & we'll have a good listen to it

[billbofagends]

Cheers for that Chris, got myself some silicate free coolant from the local motor factors - http://www.commaoil.com/productsguide/view/6/298/SLA5L

Benny, know what you mean about the 2-1-2 set up, wasn't sure how much gas exchange happened at the collector though. I guess my easiest way of testing if I need to repack is to fit the original cans back on to compare. I've inspected for leaks but couldn't find anything.

As for the carbs, already had the 8mm socket and flexible joint on the go to tighten the bands up - couldn't get a screwdriver in there and I couldn't be bothered to get my stubby screw drivers! Do you mean use vaseline to make it easier to get the carbs in the rubbers? I put a squib of GT85 on the carbs to do that.

After a couple of very unsuccessful attempts with the diy manometer, I kept the bike running with the tubes connected and I found that the rear cylinder had much less vaccum than the front with the screw at either extreme. Lol - I used my tongue as a very crude vaccuum gauge, the front cylinder's tube would hang off whereas the rear cylinder's tube wouldn't. Crude I know but definately painted a picture. Must be an air leak somewhere. hmmm.

Just ordered a new clutch cover gasket and clutch master cylinder rebuild kit from wemoto. The stealers wanted £18 for the gasket! Gah. Wasn't even stock either!

The engine noise I'm wondering about... Sure I read somewhere that the CCT on the front works the opposite to the rear - one pulls whereas the other pushes?? Perhaps this has something to do with it. Front cyl is def noisier tho as I've used an engineer stephoscope on it (big screwdriver pushed against the engine with handle pressed in to ear!).

Had a rectifier for an R6 turn up today, so this evening I will be doing that mod... Keep an eye for the post later on where I run in to some kind of ridiculous problem... haha!


Cheers

Sam

[tony.mon]

Left pipe always has higher gas pressure at the exhaust outlet than the right.
If you want to know why, take off the RH side link pipe and have a look into the collector- you'll see a large lump of pipe poking into the hole.
You can grind this off and clean it up if you want- see the previous posts for info and conjecture as to why Honda have done it.
Left always blows condensation out before right, too. Partly due to more pressure, partly due to it being lower on the sidestand and so collects more moisture, but mostly because more gas flows in the LH one and so it reaches boiling point quicker.

No, the CCT's both push onto a blade tensioner, and tension is on the uphill stretch of the chain.

Noisier front can sometimes be because the front runs out of oil quicker when accelerating hard or during wheelies. This wears the piston a little more, leading to some piston noise.
I believe it's because the fairing reflects the noise up or down to your ear,and the rear one is more exposed so noise radiates out in all directions, so is less focussed.

[sirch345]

Sure I read somewhere that the CCT on the front works the opposite to the rear - one pulls whereas the other pushes??

Cheers

Sam

Sam,
What you probably read was what I wrote. I found after considerable R&D that I carried out on the Firestorm CCT's that the front CCT slackens off a small amount as the rev's increase, whereas the rear CCT tightens up.

Chris.

[billbofagends]

Well I've done a few more jobs on the firestorm, put the clutch back together and put the cover back on, Bit of an butt having to take it all apart just to find the plates were all good but at least I know now. Got my clutch master cylinder kit yesterday so will have a go at that at the weekend. Noticed that there is a screw on the piston - is this some kind of self adjusting mechanism? Wondering if that's what's causing the problem with mine at the moment. Noticed the rubber boot the push rod goes into was split so hmm...

I have had the front CCT out this evening, was hoping I could see a bit more of the spring to determine whether was corroded but no such joy. I've carried out the stopper mod though (hopefully I've got it right!) - used the shank part of an 8mm bolt as the filler - haven't got any ally rod lying around. The length was about 10mm - that sound about right? Just to clarify, that if the CCT does fail is the bike rideable as in OK to get home or is still turn it off as quick as poss?

Going to have a go at the rear CCT tomorrow, rebuild the clutch master cylinder, balance the carbs and maybe put the fairing back on...

[AMCQ46]

Ref the stopper mod, 10mm sounds about right..........if it fails you can ride it home, you dont have to park up and walk, it will be a bit noisy, but it wont jump a tooth.

[billbofagends]

Oooh good, thanks for that bit of info.

I've done the clutch master cylinder, bled it through and checked the clutch plate movement through the oil filler cap, noticed something a bit strange:
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When the clutch is pulled in, all of the clutch plates retract with the pressure plate as if they were stuck together with glue. When I put them back in the basket I coated them in clean engine oil based on the shop manual instructions. I would have expected them just to become slack and movable - what do other people's bikes do?

I have the feeling that when I try the clutch I will be back to where I started with uber later take up. So far to try and rectify this I've: rebuilt the slave cylinder with a new seal, inspected clutch discs/plates (all good), replaced the clutch hose line, cleaned the push rod and rebuilt the master cylinder with new piston/seals/spring etc. There's not a lot left (other than buying a diff bike!) lol.

[billbofagends]

Oh well, thanks for looking. Just gonna have to bite the bullet and try it. If it goes wrong the push rod is coming out and is going to meet my friend mr bench grinder.

[billbofagends]

I think you could be right, didn't really consider that the oil I coated them is cold and viscous. Gotta love youtube - just found a handy video all about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzIjHdEcdJ0. So, final option is fill it back up with oil and try it... Maybe the guy I bought it off used car oil or something stupid when changing it. Fingers crossed...

[AMCQ46]

Just a though when reading this, has the bite point changed to make you worry, or is it just that this bike is a lot different to your last bike?

Reason I ask is that my Storm also has a late bite point, but as long as it is not slipping, it is OK.......then all you do is adjust the lever span till it suits your hands. as it is a hydraulic clutch it is not possible to adust it to a lower bite without resorting to your suggestion of grinding a bit off the pushrod.

So I am not sure if you have a defect or it just feels wrong compared to your last bike.

[billbofagends]

I've gone one step further... whipped the clutch out again and cleaned it in petrol (rightly or wrongly - uh oh) to get rid of all traces of old unknown oil. I've reassembled it with a smear of oil (nowhere near as much as the first reassemble) and now the clutch behaves more like I would expect - it doesn't stick to the pressure plate.



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Rolled it in gear and let the clutch out to find the biting point - seems to be earlier than before. Haven't filled it with oil yet for the acid test thought.

You're right AMCQ - I am comparing this to my last main bike (Cb500) which was a plain old simple cable operated. So could be just the way it is, need to try another to compare really. My trials bike has a hydraulic clutch but you have a lot more adjustment on the handle with that. I'll hopefully have the storm out on the road tomorrow so we will see. In the meantime, gonna look for a salvaged push rod off ebay for some experimentation.

[tony.mon]

careful with pushrod grinding- they're usually only case hardened on the ends, so when you grind that off you're left with unhardened metal.
Not sure if this will make much difference on a self-adjusting clutch, because the usual problem caused by a worn pushrod is due to insufficient clearance on the cable, meaning the pushrod's in contact and under a little pressure the whole time.

I have a feeling that with a shortened pushrod you will have exactly the same situation, as the hydraulics will just compensate.

Is the pushrod properly seated in the "top hat" in the clutch?
And is the top hat properly seated in the small bearing in the pressure plate?
And is the bearing properly seated in the pressure plate?

[billbofagends]

hmm, I see what you are getting at tony. How does the clutch self adjust - is it the slave cylinder spring pushing out to take the slack up which draws more fluid in to the line?

Is the pushrod properly seated in the "top hat" in the clutch?

I'm assuming the top hat is seated correctly, can't really tell now as I've rebuilt it and filled with new oil. I think if the push rod was riding the side of the top hat it wouldn't assemble at the slave cylinder end as the push rod would hanging out too much. I will have a look from the slave cylinder end to feel if the push rod is bottoming out.

And is the top hat properly seated in the small bearing in the pressure plate?

Pretty sure it is. I did try the top hat in the pressure plate when it was disassembled and it fitted OK. I did notice that the top hat had some scoring on the outside. This looked liked where it had picked up against what it sits in. Nothing major, cleaned it up with a bit of wet and dry.

And is the bearing properly seated in the pressure plate?

Did check the bearing to make sure it didn't need replacing, seemed to be flush in the pressure plate.

People have suggested air in the fluid but I don't understand how that would cause the affect I am seeing, I would have thought that would have that opposite affect??

Good news though - I have now got the carbs balanced now thanks to a bargain buy of a set of Davida vacuum gauges from ebay! yay!
Pretty sure that the front cylinder rattling is def the CCT too as you can hear it on the overrun and the noise has changed a bit since doing the stopper mod.