Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

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Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby parkergb6 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:01 pm

Right please forgive any stupid questions or comments before I start.
As you know I had an off in September and have been off work since. My R reg storm is in the process of being repaired and I had ordered all the parts for a 2001 storm that I bought that had had a front CCT failure. I stripped the head and it was two front inlet valves bent. I replaced these and valves were reground etc and this week I got started on reassembling the head onto the bike. However when I come to set up the cams for timing marks etc I cannot for the life of me to get everything to line up exactly.
I know the rear head is ok and it has never been disturbed.
I followed the guide on here for tensioner replacement and set the FT mark at the TDC for front cylinder (checked it was at TDC before putting on the head) and when I line up the FT mark the exhaust FE mark is level with cylinder head but the inlet FI mark is slightly off but not enough to be a tooth out. However i did try to realign the sprockets and everytime comes up with same result.I have tried to photo it and here they are but I appreciate it doesn't allow for eye angle etc. I would appreciate any input/thoughts on this matter. Is it normal for the marks to be out a mm or 2.
Hopefully this makes sense.
Front Exhaust cam timing

Image

FT mark lined up
Image

Front Exhaust timing mark
Image

Inlet cam timing mark
Image

Close up front exhaust cam
Image

Central Lines not lining up as when timing marks are as above pictures
Image

Same again slightly clearer
Image

FT mark position with everything up top in line with cylinder head
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Cam sprockets lined up and FE and FI marks in line with cylinder head
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cam lobes position
Image

I know its possible that cam chain may have stretched, however bike has only done 24000 and I don't think it's that as I expect both timing marks to be off.
I had to walk away before going mad and will wait to see what knowledge pops up on here before tackling again tomorrow afternoon.

Cheers Guys
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby parkergb6 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:02 pm

I have tried to rotate the photos to make it easier to see but it wont stay that way when i upload it so sorry about that.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby ging500 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:36 pm

Before taking the head off, you had all the marks lined it may be you have put the cams in a tooth out.

This is my initial thought. I feel your pain,I'm sure Carl or tony will along soon.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby parkergb6 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:38 pm

I have also the valve gaps and have the following results
exhaust gaps 0.26 and 0.28 both with 2.00mm shims
inlet gaps 0.11 and 0.13 both with what I think are 2.05 shims.
Once I sort the timing mark issue I will of course recheck but by my calculations I will need to change one of the exhaust 2.00 ones for a 1.95 one and one inlet one for a 2.0 one to bring it within tolerances. (will likely use the exhaust one in the inlet one so only need one shim of 1.95) but as i said i will re-asses once I hopefully correct the timing marks issue.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby parkergb6 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:50 pm

ging500 wrote:Before taking the head off, you had all the marks lined it may be you have put the cams in a tooth out.

This is my initial thought. I feel your pain,I'm sure Carl or tony will along soon.



The tensioner had failed before I took it off and everything was out of whack then so not sure state of play before hand.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby ging500 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:57 pm

parkergb6 wrote:
ging500 wrote:Before taking the head off, you had all the marks lined it may be you have put the cams in a tooth out.

This is my initial thought. I feel your pain,I'm sure Carl or tony will along soon.



The tensioner had failed before I took it off and everything was out of whack then so not sure state of play before hand.


If you haven't touched the bottom end and the cam chain hasn't dropped off the crank I would time the cams to crank. When I done the shims on my sv I made sure chain is tight, pop the cams in. If the timing marks were wrong then you twist the cams and keep the chain in the same place.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby 7moore7 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:34 pm

It looks pretty good to me, man...

I can't tell quite what your question is, but I you only use the FE and FI marks for reference (related to the FT on the flywheel). All of the other ones are for different instances and trying to use them will just confuse you. It should be pretty obvious if they're off (it won't be halfway between one sprocket or another). It'll be much closer if not dead on, or obviously on tooth off. One way I check is to put a straight edge on the head:
Image

Make sure that you're pulling tension on the non-CCT side when setting timing... it will be a little off if you're trying to do it from the CCT and leaving slack on the other side.


To double check that you won't break anything, rotate the crank over a few times by hand before you start it. If by chance it's a tooth off, it will run poorly once you start it, but not break.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby parkergb6 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:47 pm

[quote="7moore7"]It looks pretty good to me, man...

I can't tell quite what your question is, but I you only use the FE and FI marks for reference (related to the FT on the flywheel). All of the other ones are for different instances and trying to use them will just confuse you.


sorry about that just wanted people's opinions on the timing marks. FE one sits nice and flush with cylinder head when Flywheel timing mark (FT) is lined up. I've pulled all the slack out of the non tensioner side before fitting exhaust cam and then when I fit the inlet cam the FI mark is not level with the cylinder head but a bit off but not so much that it's a tooth out. I have moved the inlet sprocket a number of times and it's very obvious when I'm a tooth out yet when I go back to where I was at it remained the same. It gets slightly more pronounced when I tighten the tensioner. Perhaps I'm being over cautious/ finicky.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby parkergb6 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:49 pm

oh and if I use a straight edge the exhaust FE mark is level and the inlet FI is just below the straight edge?
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby cybercarl » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:51 pm

Gonna have to be a quick reply for now!

When refitting the chain over the cam sprockets, are you pulling it taut on the opposite side to the tensioner so the slack is then taken up by the tensioner. From you photo's it looks to me that the FT on the crank is moving off the mark slightly. As your pulling the chain over the cam sprocket, this is most likely moving it.

How I do it is obviously align the crank to the FT line, then deal with the exhaust cam first (opposite side to tensioner) which can be done with the cam bolted and torqued up It's the FE and FI marks which are of importance not lines in the centre, though IIRC they do line up when the FE and FI are lined horizontally. So get the FE lined up on the cam and slide the chain over keeping as taut as possible. Maybe cable tie it on so it don't slip back off (just thought of that) and then for the inlet cam I find it easier to not have the cam cap holding the cam in place. With the cam angled into the chain you can easily slide the chain over and move the cam around the links until you have thing's lined up. It can be a little fiddly but you will get there. Then put the cam cap on and torque things up.

Also watch that when you take up the slack in the chain with the tensioner that it does not pull things a little off alignment. There is a little play in things until it's all tightened up. Actually you may want to check this before fully torquing up the cam cap bolts.

Just by walking away and going back to it later you have helped yourself. You might get it spot on next time :wink:

As for the valve clearances, I read that and went all dyslexic at the numbers. I shall leave that for now.

Dam... that was supposed to be a quick reply. :lol: Got to go make some dinner now. :Hungry:

(:-})
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby 7moore7 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:53 pm

I would say that yes, you are being overly cautious. If it is obvious that one is closer than the other, then the closer one is your timing. The whole system has just a little bit of slop in it (CCT slack, etc.) and won't be perfect.

If you were to look at the rear head it will be just a touch off as well. Think about it this way... you haven't adjusted anything that would cause this difference so it was there before the CCT crash.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby mattycoops43 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:56 pm

This is a general engine thing, not a storm thing,

If your chain is a tooth out on the crank, it will make your cams half a tooth out at the top. My mechanic mate told me this, and I couldn't work it out, because the length of a chain link is the same at the top of the engine as at the bottom, right? Well I eventually sussed it. It's the gearing effect of the crank turning twice for every revolution of the cams.

Anyway, is it possible for the chain to slip on the crank or is that not possible with the bottom half built up?

Have you done anything to the bottom end?

Other than that I agree with the previous couple of comments, it don't look that far off to me!
Budget storm gradually on the road to spangliness.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby cybercarl » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:58 pm

Make sure that you're pulling tension on the non-CCT side when setting timing... it will be a little off if you're trying to do it from the CCT and leaving slack on the other side.
You beat me to it. :plainsmile

oh and if I use a straight edge the exhaust FE mark is level and the inlet FI is just below the straight edge?
That sound good to me as the ruler will be above the top of the cylinder head. Things don't have to be exact to the mm and the bike will run fine 1/2 tooth off either way as if the chain had stretched with age.

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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby 7moore7 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:08 pm

mattycoops43 wrote:Anyway, is it possible for the chain to slip on the crank or is that not possible with the bottom half built up?


The rest made perfect sense, but the chain could slip 10 teeth and not matter in this case (which it is indeed possible with the bottom build up) The chain isn't lined up to anything on the cranks themselves, and unless it has uneven links you are really lining the bottom crank sprocket with the two cam sprockets. The chain is merely connecting them via a certain length. It isn't part of the actual timing, it's just transferring the rotation from the bottom to the top.
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Re: Cannot line up timing marks after front CCT failure

Postby 7moore7 » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:10 pm

cybercarl wrote:You beat me to it. :plainsmile


:Tongue:
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