1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

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4x2
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1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering (short video P4)

Post by 4x2 »

Mostly posting this here for future reference and for anyone else interested in trying the same thing;

So, VTR bought, knew about the horrendous fuel consumption, had some budget and parts lying about, needed a new simple project besides the eternal moneypit that's my trackday car.
Also, as a service engineer I'm away from home quite often and if history has shown me anything it's that carbs don't like sitting idle with fuel in them.

Current speclist (13-07-2020):
1997 VTR1000
VFR 90-93 clip ons
15T front sprocket
removed air filter ridge
48 pilots, jetting otherwise stock
CBR1000RR pencil coils (as I had them lying around, just for fun)
some cheap crapass chinese digital clock due to speed limits changing during the day
Homemade topcase rack, because carrying stuff on your back sucks


Let's start from the beginning: VTR looked quite nice when I bought it, the testdrive just showed head stock bearings that were well beyond gone, rattling clutch but nothing major.
Riding position was a bit sporty for me, so got some 90-93 VFR clip ons, problem 1 sorted.

Next one: replace the bearings and put in hyperpro springs F+R (not too interested in taking it on track and they're cheap enough)

Take apart the front end:
Image

Old bearings were properly shot:
Image

Heat up new bearings and make lunch in the airfryer:
Image

Start on the back, the goal being to remove only the bare minimum (which turned out to be just the gear lever, besides the shock & linkage)
Image

Everything back together (and yes, I'm aware the spring is upside down, couldn't be bothered to take it apart again):
Image

Ok, all that done, decided to do a preliminary investigation into the EFI conversion.
Decided to use the throttle bodies from a Ducati 748/916/996 as they were cheap and it appeared to be relatively easy to modify the respective angle/distance between them.
Got a set off ebay for some 75EUR, and started messing about.

First: carbs off and measure a bit:
Image

Ok, so the TB's where a bit too large in diameter, that could either be solved by using adapter inlet manifolds, or......:
Image
Image

Yep, that worked out quite well:
Image
Image

So the original airbox has been modified a bit to fit the Ducati trumpets, the connection between the TB's and airbox is made with some PTFE (or some kind of plastic at least) adapter blocks as I had that lying around, but didn't take any photos yet.
The linkage between the TB's is a bith of a botch job with steel & welding, but it didn't need to be pretty anyway.
Image
Image

So far the mechanical part of the conversion is quite straightforward, the only issue I can see so far is finding a spot for the external fuel pump, filter & pressure regulator) the electrical part might be a bit more interesting.

The ECU I'll be using is a speeduino, which is arduino based and is quite cheap compared to other options. Tuning software is the same as a megasquirt (which I do have experience with)
I'll be using the original Ducati injectors, a fuel pump from a mercedes, I'll probably modify the level float a bit to install a return line (I'd rather not weld the fuel tank unless absolutely necessary), wideband lambda sensor from 14point7 and some other bits. I'll update that stuff as it goes, will probably continue the conversation somewhere this or next week.

I did check for a rpm signal, just piggybacked on the original spark unit, but it seems to pick that up no problem.
Image
Image

Bit of an explanation for the bottom picture:
The VTR has that pulse rotor for the ignition signal, it is 12-3 (12 teeth in 360 degrees, but 3 missing), those 3 missing teeth will tell when the engine needs its spark (the actual timing of this has to be checked with a strobe light after installing everything)
The picture shows the tooth logger of the Tunerstudio software used to setup the ECU, it basically shows the length (in ms) between teeth picked up by the crank sensor, so the tall bar is the 3 missing teeth (as it takes longer for it to register a real tooth)
This will more than likely require a bit of fiddling and adjusting to get to register perfectly without any false teeth, but the initial test had the software follow the rpm of the engine nicely, so it's at least working reasonably well.

I will also add an extra sensor on the camshaft so the engine knows in which phase it is (as otherwise it cannot determine if it's on the compression stroke or in valve overlap when it's at TDC) to enable fully sequential ignition & injection.
Not really necessary, but I expect it to be not a lot of extra work and it will give some gains for idling & fuel consumption.

I did do a dynorun last saturday to determine a base value before doing the EFI conversion to avoid chasing my own tail if it's not reaching it's power output:


Image

It came to 110BHP / 100NM, but the results are a bit off as the rpm pickup wasn't working very well producing some spikes (95% in the power curve, but the torque curve had a few small ones as well)
In any case, I think it's safe to assume (even removing 3-4BHP accounting for the spikes) the engine itself is healthy enough, AFR curve was actually quite nice as well
Last edited by 4x2 on Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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alanfjones1411
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by alanfjones1411 »

I can tinker,but that has gone completely over my head 8O.Great project.Good luck with it.
SO WHEN DOES THIS OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW BETTER KICK IN
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Wicky
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by Wicky »

Healthy output before you''ve even started - most stock storms put out 95-105 horsies. Sure it hasn't been tinkered with already?
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

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4x2
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by 4x2 »

Jetting was stock, I only changed the pilots to 48's and removed the ridge in the air filter.
Did balance the carbs and adjusted the TPS as well, but that shouldn't have any effect on peak power.
It did (rather impressively) lift it's front wheel in 1st gear even with the original 16T sprocket (just whack it open from 3000rpm or so) so I already figured it was healthy enough.

I'm mostly guessing an enthusiastic dyno, but I only did the run to establish a baseline as the place is very close (2km) and as long as I keep going back there any improvements should still be visible.
But who knows, I might discover something when I remove the valve covers.
tony.mon
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by tony.mon »

Really interesting thread, I've always believed that Duc tb's could be made to fit easily enough.
You know the Varadero engine is the same cases etc, and so you can use those parts to get the cam position sensors. It's the later Vara stuff you need, the early ones were carbs.
I think they have pickups on the cam sprockets rather than the cams, so they'd swap straight in. Check, though, I could be wrong.

It's a healthy engine, with those numbers, sure enough.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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sirch345
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by sirch345 »

I agree with Tony this is an interesting thread 8)
I hope it all goes to plan, good on you for giving it ago.

As you said it doesn't really mater what the Dyno says now, it's what it says after the conversion is accomplished :D

Chris.
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freeridenick
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by freeridenick »

Excellent work and thanks for sharing. This would be a very useful post if someone was thinking about adding a turbo.
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sirch345
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by sirch345 »

:lol: I meant to say you'll fit in very well here :thumbup:
4x2 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:19 amHeat up new bearings and make lunch in the airfryer:
Image

Chris.
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fabiostar
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by fabiostar »

brilliant thread. you lost me 2 lines in but still great reading :thumbup:
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
tony.mon
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by tony.mon »

You mentioned "finding a spot for the electronic fuel pump".
I had the same problem when I wanted to fit one.
The solution I came up with was to remove the coolant overflow reservoir in the vee of the cylinders, and replace it with a smaller, cylindrical HRC bottle which can sit quite neatly above the rh rad.
This means you can fit the pump into that space, and keep the fuel lines short.
It's worth mentioning that I had another issue, which was that the vacuum tap diaphragm (older, 16 litre tank) kept being pulled shut by the pump. One to watch out for.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
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AMCQ46
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by AMCQ46 »

tony.mon wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:07 pm It's worth mentioning that I had another issue, which was that the vacuum tap diaphragm (older, 16 litre tank) kept being pulled shut by the pump. One to watch out for.
Yes a few of us remember that problem as we watched you try and work out what was wrong with your bike :lol:
AMcQ
tony.mon
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by tony.mon »

It was part of my philanthropic education program, to show how easy and quick it is to pull off a Storm petrol tank.
I hope you were paying attention at the back.

(And sorry for the delays)
:oops:
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
4x2
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by 4x2 »

tony.mon wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:07 pm You mentioned "finding a spot for the electronic fuel pump".
I had the same problem when I wanted to fit one.
The solution I came up with was to remove the coolant overflow reservoir in the vee of the cylinders, and replace it with a smaller, cylindrical HRC bottle which can sit quite neatly above the rh rad.
This means you can fit the pump into that space, and keep the fuel lines short.
It's worth mentioning that I had another issue, which was that the vacuum tap diaphragm (older, 16 litre tank) kept being pulled shut by the pump. One to watch out for.
That's actually quite clever, didn't think of it yet, not sure if heatsoak will be an issue, but the ECU has a priming function and all, so it'll probably be ok.
The vacuum diaphragm is already shot, but I'll more than likely remove it anyway.

The other option is putting it somewhere in the area around the battery/rear brake reservoir, as long as it's below tank level it's should be fine.

Not too much progress the last few days anyway, crimped most of the terminals for various cables going to and from the ECU, but that's about it.
MK_WF
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by MK_WF »

Nice to see someone else approaching this.
Says someone who already Microsquirted a RD350 and owns a VTR1000 with a programmable Ignitech ignition.

If required you can get the necessary ignition settings here :
https://www.vtr1000.de/index.php?thread ... /&pageNo=1

Conncerning the fuel pump I used an external Walbro on the RD, but always planned to modify the tank for an in-tank solution. It's no wizardry to weld that when you take some precautions.
In the VTR case it's even easier. You can use the VFR800 Tank, that has 22l and a built-in pump.
Here's an example from the German VTR forum :
https://www.vtr1000.de/index.php?thread ... post583764

Some 10 years ago somebody already tried a Megasquirt on his VTR. The according threads can be found here and I guess even if it's in German, the pics and keywords may help. If required I can translate.
Thread on the Megasquirt forum :
http://megasquirt.de/msforum/viewtopic. ... VTR#p38538
Thread on the VTR forum :
https://www.vtr1000.de/index.php?thread ... /&pageNo=1

He reported a +18hp on the dyno but the fuel consumption was about the same.
Unfortunately that guy is not active anymore in neither forum and doesn't respond to PM's.

But there was another guy from the German VTR forum who planned this and already collected the necessary parts. Just recently he said he'd go a different way and offered his parts to me - including a VFR tank.
Maybe you could contact him: https://www.vtr1000.de/core/index.php?u ... twinfreak/
Bye
Martin
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nigelrb
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Re: 1997 VTR EFI conversion and other tinkering

Post by nigelrb »

alanfjones1411 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:06 pm I can tinker,but that has gone completely over my head 8O.Great project.Good luck with it.
Likewise from me.

Shows shows how big the gap is between basics and exceptionals! Very interesting.
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