Trail Braking

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8541Hawk
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by 8541Hawk »

geodude wrote: but you give it a handful of front, albeit gradual, banked over on a bend and you are presented with gravel, you are going down 8O
Possibly but if you entered the same corner with no brakes applied and hit the same gravel, it could be said you are going down also.
The only difference is IMHO if you are trail braking you at least have options.

I say this because if you see gravel, while trail braking, you can instantly slow down as you are already on the brakes.
This will give you more time to avoid the hazard or even stop completely before coming to it or in the worse case at least slow down so the get off is less violent.

Being in that situation and being unwilling to use the front brake because you are leaned really doesn't leave you many options IMHO.
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fabiostar
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by fabiostar »

i think id rather take my chances with loosing the back end than the front lol. :D ...as kenny roberts once said. nobody ever lost the front on the throttle...
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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8541Hawk
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by 8541Hawk »

fabiostar wrote:i think id rather take my chances with loosing the back end than the front lol. :D ...as kenny roberts once said. nobody ever lost the front on the throttle...
Well it's funny how many people feel that way...... once again I'll state it once again.....

Loose the front end = Low side

Loose the rear end = High side.

Sure not every time but that is where things are leading.... so for me I would rather loose the front and fall down as opposed to looseing the rear and getting shot to the moon.....

And yes it is true that no one has lost the front on the throttle.... that is why the crashes are so spectacular when things go bad with too much power out of a corner.....
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fabiostar
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by fabiostar »

you gotta love being pinged so high you come down with snow on your boots :D
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
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8541Hawk
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by 8541Hawk »

fabiostar wrote:you gotta love being pinged so high you come down with snow on your boots :D
Not really as it just isn't fun getting to realize just how bad you have really screwed the pooch this time before you even come close to the ground.....
Which of course is followed by this is really going to hurt...... or maybe the other way around.

It's just something I really try to avoid as an old guy..... :thumbup:
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fabiostar
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by fabiostar »

being of AN AGE myself i know just what you mean :clap: ..
the older i get,the faster i was :lol:
callam_nffc
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by callam_nffc »

Am I right in thinking that trail braking is just late braking, coming off the brakes just before you start getting really cranked over?

Because that's generally what I do if I'm giving it some anyway, and adjust with the rear if it's essential to brake mid bend
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8541Hawk
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by 8541Hawk »

Not really, it is slowly letting off (or trailing off) the front brake all the way to the apex or when you get back on the throttle.
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Tweety
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Tweety »

callam_nffc wrote:Am I right in thinking that trail braking is just late braking, coming off the brakes just before you start getting really cranked over?

Because that's generally what I do if I'm giving it some anyway, and adjust with the rear if it's essential to brake mid bend
Late braking is essentially braking, then cornering, then hitting the throttle in separete stages...

Trail braking is where you more or less squeese the brakes until you hit the throttle... Gradually letting off, but braking all the way throught the corner... Makes the bike stay stable, no shifting mid corner from brakes to freewheeling, and allows you to take lines you otherwise couldn't...
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Image »

Sometimes I do what's called 'comfort braking' which is lightly using the back brake when filtering etc which steadys the bike at slow speeds. Another and very important use of the back brake which hasn't been mentioned yet is if you get a blow out in your front tyre when it's important to use the back brake only to counterbalance the resistance of the sudden front tyre deflation.
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Squiffythewombat
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Squiffythewombat »

callam_nffc wrote:
Late braking is essentially braking, then cornering, then hitting the throttle in separete stages...

Trail braking is where you more or less squeese the brakes until you hit the throttle... Gradually letting off, but braking all the way throught the corner... Makes the bike stay stable, no shifting mid corner from brakes to freewheeling, and allows you to take lines you otherwise couldn't...

Perfectly explained, well done!

One should be taught this technique even at a basic level I think as in certain situations it's very handy.

That said, one should also be careful when practicing this as if you are braking mid-corner then something has gone wrong; either your entry, line or positioning are off and that is what needs to be ultimately corrected. Trail braking is there to stop you ending up in the gravel when it all goes tits up!
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Stormin Ben
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Stormin Ben »

To my mind trail braking to the apex is very much a performance technique and by and large I would advocate restricting its usage to either track use or your favourite piece of road.
It is simply a method of shifting the braking phase of corner entry deeper into the corner

This, to my mind, is most definitely NOT the same as the ability to brake mid corner
That is a vital skill and one that I would advocate practicing as much as possible so that when/if you ever do need it it is an automatic process, rather than a panic reaction and more importantly you know how the bike is going to react. (VTR standard forks it stands up unnervingly, on Blade forks it stays very neutral)
To this end there is a great cloverleaf junction near me (two dual carriageways crossing over each other) that gives you a consistent bend with consistent surface and nothing coming the other way that I have a play on regularly.
Going round at varying speeds it is eye opening just how much brake you can apply whilst leant over to knee/boot down, BUT you need to apply it correctly and that is the reason for practicing it.
Same goes for emergency stops -every time I come up to a 30mph limit on a blast out in the country I leave it as late as possible and really hammer it.
Thinking being that the first time you have to do one for real (eg car pulling out on you) is NOT the time you want to get it wrong by grabbing too much too soon and locking the front or being too reticent and slamming into the car.

As for the losing the front/ rear debate how many people do you know who have lost the front and not crashed? A damn sight less than those losing the rear I'll bet!
Losing the rear has three options:
1. Slides a bit, grip is restored, bit of a wobble - new underpants
2. Starts sliding, roll the throttle slightly, grip is restored smoothly - bragging points at rear wheel steering
2. Spins out from underneath you - lowside
3. Slides quite a long way before you slam the throttle shut and it then grips - highside
Certainly on the road where you aren't trying to utilise 100% of the available grip (because you'd have to be a right tool to ride like that on the road!) the highside is rare
Losing the front has only two options and they both happen FAR too fast to react:
1. It grips again the other side of the gravel/ manhole cover - new underpants
2. It doesn't regain grip - road suddenly become much closer to the visor
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Dendrob
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Dendrob »

Stormin Ben wrote:
......VTR standard forks it stands up unnervingly, on Blade forks it stays very neutral.........
Why?
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Stormin Ben
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Stormin Ben »

Geometry I figured.
I never actually measured the actual differences but I'm guessing as the forks were shorter the rake angle was less.
But it may equally have been if the fork offset was less on the Blade yoke that the trail was less

But whatever the reason it was a night and day difference
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Dendrob
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Re: Trail Braking

Post by Dendrob »

Stormin Ben wrote:Geometry I figured.
I never actually measured the actual differences but I'm guessing as the forks were shorter the rake angle was less.
But it may equally have been if the fork offset was less on the Blade yoke that the trail was less

But whatever the reason it was a night and day difference
I think less offset increases trail. But the steeper rake lessens trail. Whether you ended up with more or less, no idea.

But I have wondered just what factors allow fairly heavy braking deep into corners and still allow the bike to be steered, but other bikes react badly and tend to resist steering even to the point of "sitting up".
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