maybe a stupid question but....

[tattoo]

when you do the cct's why do you have to measure the "slack" between the cam sprockets...i had an implosion of the front cct and when i repaired it and rebuilt it i didn't leave any "slack"...to me its like doing a cars timing belt....you make sure the belts tight between the sprockets and the slacks on the tensioner side...if you leave "slack" between the cams when you fit the tensioner will it not move the cams away from TDC...is it me thats read it too many times and confusing myself or have i just got the dogs head on today??

[VTRDark]

You doing it when cold so as it heats up and everything expands it tightens that extra bit. If it's overtight then it's going to put extra stress's and strains on the engine, bearings and such. Or if it's really overtight then the bike will struggle to turn over and there will be a screeching noise as well as over stressing the engine:eek2

I think your looking too much into it because you have suffered the downside of one failing and it's one of those jobs where nerves over rule the practicality of it. If you have both cam covers off then the tension is real easy. Just use a ruler and get 7mm play in it. Make sure you have some sealant around the thread of the CCT when tightening it up so it goes inside the shaft, a little extra on the outside, lock off the lock nut, then double check the tension, jobs a good'n. Where thing's go wrong for some peole is when they do it finger tight or adjust them by sound with the engine running. If one decides to not remove the front cam cover and adjust the front the same as the rear then not only does this not account for possible differences in wear and tear between the two, but you can't visually check the cam positions to be 100% sure the timing is right and your at TDC on the compression stroke.

When turning the crank at the generator bolt from TDC Compression on the the rear (rear cam lobes pointing upwards and inwards, timing mark at crank is RT) turning the crank anti clockwise to get to FT for the front, the FT passes once and then when it comes around again for the second time you stop there. The front will now be at TDC on the compression stroke (FT) for the front. If you was to stop the first time you see it then it would be 180 degrees out and on the exhaust stroke. Done that myself first time If one has the front cam cover off then you can visually verify for sure that you are on the compression stroke by the cam lobes pointing upwards and outwards, the opposite of the rear. The problem is it's tricky to stop dead on the FT line as the engine is under pressure as the piston comes up and right on the edge of the cam, and if one just goes past that point then the piston forces itself from the pressure back down and the flywheel spins past that point. You then have to go all the way around again anti clockwise as you cant go backwards and it's easy to loose track of where you are. With the cam cover off, just look at the cam positions. It also gives you the chance to verify the lines on the each cam wheel (FI, FE and RI, RE) are horizontal with the top of the head. It's only an extra 20-30 mins of time to remove the cover for peace of mind and 100% verification that everything is good.

This is my rear inlet RI, the front would be FI, as you can see the line is horizontal with the top of the cylinder head.

To take the front cam cover off all you have to do is remove the fairing out of the way, remove carbs and the plastic cowl underneath that sits over the front cam cover. Remove the two IIRC 10mm bolts that hold the oil cooler up, pull it down out the way and then you have access to the bolts for the cam cover. You may or may not have to remove the top mounting bolts on the rads to get in there as well. Can't remember now if I did or not. But that's all there is too it.

Just be careful when putting the cam covers back on that the rubber gasket is seated correctly. Maybe dab some gasket seal around it to hold it in place, especially around the U shape where the plug is and at the front where it can drop down. You don't want any oil leaks once it's all back together, and do not overtighten the bolts that hold the cover on as they can snap easily. Also double check that the bolts have the rubber washer thingy in place before putting them back on. Some will stick to the bolt when you remove them and others will come off and stick to the cover.

(:-})

[tattoo]

the timings i can do without thinking about,it's was the 7mm slack at the cam sprockets i couldn't get my head round as i didn't leave any slack when i rebuilt the front head,what i did when i did the front cct was...


i got TDC on the front cylinder removed the broken cct then refitted the cams and checked they were in the right position then i made an adjustable locking tool so the cams wouldn't move when i removed them as one unit when i took the head off to fit new valves..when i rebuilt it i loosely fitted the cams to double check they hadn't moved..when i fitted the chain i made sure that the tension was from the crank to the cams and the slack was at the tensioner side and fitted a new auto tensioner then took the locking tool off and turned the engine by hand 3 times checking that the timing was right everytime..by 3 times i mean turn it 360dgs and check then do the same twice more...thats just me being xtra careful though...

now i haven't got the tool i made to lock the cams and not knowing how tight to set the manuals is making me nervous about changing them

if all that makes sense

[seb421]

i can't remember how much slack i did but i think it was either the 5mm or 7mm play

Ran one engine for 30k+ and another for 7K never had to adjust them, iirc benny was about the same

[bigtwinthing]

thats a good question, however mine may be stupid!!!, can you tell if there too tight? i fitted mine last month as per this forum and all went smoothly and the bike runs fine, i am though thinking what if there too tight!!, will it waer the camshaft bearings out by being too tight.
do i slacken them off slightly until they dont tick at tickover???

[carmanbikes]

the timings i can do without thinking about,it's was the 7mm slack at the cam sprockets i couldn't get my head round as i didn't leave any slack when i rebuilt the front head,what i did when i did the front cct was...


i got TDC on the front cylinder removed the broken cct then refitted the cams and checked they were in the right position then i made an adjustable locking tool so the cams wouldn't move when i removed them as one unit when i took the head off to fit new valves..when i rebuilt it i loosely fitted the cams to double check they hadn't moved..when i fitted the chain i made sure that the tension was from the crank to the cams and the slack was at the tensioner side and fitted a new auto tensioner then took the locking tool off and turned the engine by hand 3 times checking that the timing was right everytime..by 3 times i mean turn it 360dgs and check then do the same twice more...thats just me being xtra careful though...

now i haven't got the tool i made to lock the cams and not knowing how tight to set the manuals is making me nervous about changing them

if all that makes sense

Hi Andi, I have done the same as you replaced the front then I removed the rear to see how tight that was and there was no play between the sprockets, but not run it yet so keeping a keen eye on the answer to this

[VTRDark]

now i haven't got the tool i made to lock the cams

I think your referring to the locking tool for the Honda auto tensioners. There is no need for any locking if fitting manual tensioners. Just set to TDC on the compression stroke and remove the old Honda ones and stick manuals in. It only need locking off if going down stop mod road.

do i slacken them off slightly until they dont tick at tickover?

Bigwinthing If you can hear the slight ticking at idle when cold that is perfectly normal. As things heat up and expand then the noise should go. How did you go about setting the tension.

(:-})

[tattoo]

i wasn't thinking of the honda key,i made an adjustable locking tool that used the holes in the cam sprockets to lock them in position before removing the broken cct which meant all i had to do was undo the cam caps and lift both cams out as 1 unit,refitting them was easier too as i didn't have to hold either cam while putting the chain back round them..

i know i don't have to lock the cams to replace the auto's for manuals but i'm bothered about setting them at the right tension....is this the right way of setting them....


set the timing at TDC them lock the auto cct using the key and remove it,either measure or place it end to end so the rods are facing each other and adjust the manual one so it's the same length then lock it off with loctite and the nut...should i also use loctite on the locking nut too so it can't vibrate/work loose....

i'm can most jobs on the bike myself but doing this job scares me to death...

[VTRDark]

Right I understand what you mean now. As you had the failure the cams where way off, so you locked the cams in place so they didn't move while putting the chain back on.

i know i don't have to lock the cams to replace the auto's for manuals but i'm bothered about setting them at the right tension....is this the right way of setting them....


set the timing at TDC them lock the auto cct using the key and remove it,either measure or place it end to end so the rods are facing each other and adjust the manual one so it's the same length then lock it off with loctite and the nut...should i also use loctite on the locking nut too so it can't vibrate/work loose....

Not quite. Set the timing to TDC on the compression stroke for whichever cylinder your working on. This should put the chain where it is under no tension so there should be no slippage. As an extra precaution you could cable tie the chain to each sprocket. There's no need to lock the auto's as they are being replaced with manuals. So loosen each bolt slightly (1/2 cm or something) alternating between the two. Give the end of the auto CCT a light tap with a hammer or ratchet handle or something to break the seal at the gasket. Then undo the rest of thread on the bolts still alternating between the two so it comes out squarely. By all means lock it off first with the key, this would just be an extra precautionary measure but is unnecessary it you have the cams at TDC on the compression stroke and cable tied off. Anyway there is a good chance the key will slip out as your breaking the seal on the gasket unless it's taped down good and proper.

There is nothing to measure on the Honda autos and they are now not needed. Put you new paper gasket in place after cleaning up the surface where the old one stuck or don't clean it and use gasket sealant. I would be tempted to use a bit of sealant even with a paper gasket around the tensioner insert! Undo the thread on the manual tensioner all the way out. Insert the manual tensioner in place, put a smear of gasket seal along the threads of the mounting bolt's, insert and tighten fully. Smear a little gasket seal along the tensioner thread so as it''s tightened up it goes in the hole the thread comes out. Tighten up until you get the 7mm play in the chain between the two sprockets. If you used enough sealant on the thread then there will be a blob on the outside surface anyway as it squigged out when tightening, but you may want to put a little on the outside, and then lock it off (if tight enough it should not work loose) and then check the tension once again to make sure it hasn't moved when locking off. Clean up any mess from squigged out sealant on the outside. You are now done and it's time to move onto the other cylinder and go through the same procedure.

I personally prefer to use gasket sealant rather than loctite as this is what I use instead of a new paper gasket, Saves the extra expense of gaskets and cleaning the old paper, it's quicker and saves risking bits of old paper and sh1t falling inside the engine. I also believe gasket seal resists heat and last longer as this is what it's designed for, plus one tends to not skimp on sealant as it not a little bottle or tube like loctite when putting on the threads. If you don't put enough on you will only get weeping oil at a later date so don't be froogle with the sealant.

Once done you will need no more adjustment on them for quite a few thousand miles. Maybe next time you have to replace shims for valve clearances.

(:-})

[tattoo]

thanks carl..good tip about tie wrapping the chain to the sprockets too...i know i'm being daft about changing them as i've already done more or less the same job when i repaired the front cylinder...only difference was i pulled a key out of the cct to set it back then...i'll be checking the valve clearances while i have the covers off too but i suspect they need doing again as i've done 20,000 miles in 2years...just got find the shim kit now..i hate moving,things get put where their not suppose to be or even worse..they get lost...

[bigtwinthing]

now i haven't got the tool i made to lock the cams

I think your referring to the locking tool for the Honda auto tensioners. There is no need for any locking if fitting manual tensioners. Just set to TDC on the compression stroke and remove the old Honda ones and stick manuals in. It only need locking off if going down stop mod road.

do i slacken them off slightly until they dont tick at tickover?

Bigwinthing If you can hear the slight ticking at idle when cold that is perfectly normal. As things heat up and expand then the noise should go. How did you go about setting the tension.

(:-})

followed the forum to the letter and had 7mm play between the sprockets and i even measured that with a depth Gauge. It seems fine but seems to make a slightly different noise but that might be me!!!. After all the work i did it runs superb and the brakes were so much better after the fresh hydraulic oil was put in and bled. Coolant has been changed,new plugs, valve clearances checked, and a new air filter and carb balance. Took 5 hrs in total but well worth it. I think the only thing i mat do is drop a tooth on the front sprocket or go up 2 on the back. i still dont think i will ever get my right knee down though but i will be trying on Sunday.

[VTRDark]

It seems fine but seems to make a slightly different noise but that might be me!!!.

Deja Vu, No that is normal. Going from Honda CCT's to manuals does change the tone of things slightly. You probably notice the noise more when cold and at idle. You will soon get used to it. It's like learning to listen to the engine all over again. It's like If you was to stick a second long stack in place of the short one then you would then have another noise to listen too. The sound of a noisier intake.

Without trying to sound rude I refer you to the following thread. http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28168

By the sounds of it you done well and all is good. Have fun and ride safe.

(:-})

[bigtwinthing]

well done another 230 miles today, lofted the front from the lights, almost got the tyres right off to the edges and i am seriosly enjoying the handling of this bike, it seems to run faultlessly apart from the odd backfire /burble on the overrun, It sounded awsome up through the hindhead tunnel today, and went a treat,

[VTRDark]

apart from the odd backfire /burble on the overrun

Check all you exhaust seals are not blowing. But then a again a little popping (make sure I spelt that right ) on the overun sounds quite nice, especially in tunnels. Hee Hee.

(:-})