What would you guys do??

[8541Hawk]

So I have a bit of a quandary and not sure what to do about it.

While in the big picture, it is really none of my business. I also know I would feel bad if a fellow rider hurt or even killed themselves because they did understand the situation they are putting themselves in.

For the back story, I had a local rider stop by about 3 months ago and I looked at the suspension on his bike (USD forks and an Ohlins shock)
I tried to set the sag and found some issues.

On the rear, the hydraulic pre-load adjuster is basically non-functional. By turning it all the way in I got around 4-5mm of adjustment.
To me, this is like having a trolly jack that will only lift you car 6" or so...... would you call it safe and keep using it or would you get it fixed before you crawled under the car?

This thing was sagging so much that I had no issues installing a 6mm ride height spacer as in reality it only raised the rear about 1mm at most over the stock ride height with proper sag numbers.
Then as someone who has broken an Ohlins shock shaft, I took a good look at the shock and it defiantly needs a rebuild. Also as someone who was damn luck to keep the bike on its wheels, I know the shaft can snap with no real warning if the spherical bearing fails.

For the forks, while they seem to function properly (though feel pretty stiff and non compliant, though I didn't ride the bike and wouldn't at this point) I asked a few questions.
I found out the forks were purchased off of someones race bike and when they arrived they were just installed. No checking the oil condition or level....just throw them on and go..... While not really dangerous per say IMHO it is still very bad form and something that could bite you in the butt if done as common practice.

I didn't think much about it all until he starts posting about track days and doing one mod after the other on the bike while claiming the suspension is ok.
I made a comment on one of his treads about how he might want to hold off on doing other stuff and get the suspension squared away.

That was met with "Oh I respect your opinion but what, I have to earn my stripes before I can mod my bike"?
Then there was also a comment about how the suspension guys at the track said they set the sag and it was fine....... So I guess the pro-load adjuster magically fixed itself......
I was also told that his bike only has XXXXXX number of miles on it so it is not time for a rebuild....... which is great, if the shock was new when installed, though I kind of doubt that was the case after inspecting the shock.
Plus the classic, I have to use the bike everyday so I can't do the downtime.

Which leads to the quandary, Do you tell someone their bike is a death trap and that you would not be comfortable riding it around the block while they go out and do track days on it?
Or do you just sit back and wait for the inevitable to happen?

If you tell them, how do you go about it?
I have tried and been meet with, what I perceive, the attitude of you just don't want me to modify my bike.

Sorry for the rant and even if I get no replies I guess this was the way I can just walk away from the situation and not feel bad when it happens.

[AMCQ46]

Looks like you have done about as much as you can to subtly coach him in the right direction. As that didn't work, all it would suggest is you show him the pictures of your broken shock and tell him why you suspect his shock has had a tough life. Then he has all the facts and it's up to him

[8541Hawk]

You mean these pics.....





and yes it happened with no warning, I did get a touch of a weird "wiggle" but nothing that would let you know all hell was about to break loose, and I learned afterward that it is not uncommon for it to happen if you do not service the spherical bearing.

[gl_s_r]

Looks like you have done about as much as you can to subtly coach him in the right direction. As that didn't work, all it would suggest is you show him the pictures of your broken shock and tell him why you suspect his shock has had a tough life. Then he has all the facts and it's up to him

+1.... and then feel no guilt should anything happen, there is only so much you can do if someone will not listen.

[Kev L]

You have done what you can Hawk, like all things in life folk have to learn for themselves. Young, dumb & ehh, covered in bruises.

[Max]

You can only tell em so many times, if they wont listen its down to them in the end. We are all grown ups and have to make our own choices and then take any consequences good or bad.

[lloydie]

If someone won't take good advice on a subject that you know all about and then it's on there own back !

Myself I like to be straight and to the point and I'd just say " stop being a twit get it sorted before it kills you or someone you run into when it fails and it will "

[VTRDark]

I'm with Max on this one. But looking at it from another perspective I would see going on track being a good thing as if something was to happen there then at least there are medical staff and an ambulance on stand-by. I can't think of a better place to crash because at least there are runs off's etc. Better than coming off on the road and hitting another vehicle or street furniture and then having to wait ages for an ambulance and medical staff to arrive. Or even worse end of over the edge of a canyon/cliff/hill or whatever. Also don't tracks have staff there on hand to check over bikes help with suspension etc. I'm sure if they spotted something dangerous then they would disallow that bike out on track.

All one can do is notify someone of things like this and it's up to them whether they take onboard what has been said. I guess with yourself coming from a military background your used to people doing as they are told, a bit like a parent or teacher....it's either a caring thing and teaching someone the ways and this is why it winds you up. Or other times it's just someone out on a power/control trip. When someone sticks two fingers up at so called, for want of a better word, authority then that's either rebellion or a lack of respect. So then there is a clash, it's a no win situation for either parties. In the military or school there is always someone higher up the scale one can go to for back up, but this is the real world and we are all individuals and don't have an order to follow unless we are sheep with no individuality to think for ourselves. Or is it as humans we are too intelligent for our own good.

(:-})

[Shauned71]

This may sound a bit uncaring but in my opinion let him get on with it. You have shown/aired your concerns. I think if the guy was going to listen he would of by now, I mean who in hell would not take good advice when it comes to something like this. Think if i was this guy... even if I didn't agree with you 100%, your comments would make me just about paranoid enough to at least check things to be sure.

As for feeling bad if something happens... you have tried, not much more you can do plus the "suspension guys at the track said they set the sag and it was fine"... If something happens maybe feel sorry for him but your conscious should be clear. If I was in your situation, looked at a bike and found something dangerous.... told the owner the problem and expressed my concerns.. I wouldn't want anything bad to happen but if it all went pear shaped, well.. I don't think i could feel bad for an idiot. There's no excuse for ignorance after all.

And believe me.. after 25+ years in the motor trade... I have met my share of morons who have refused to take good advice lol You just can't tell some people.

[2wheelsagain]

You've done all you can do. You've done more than you're obligated to do in my opinion.
You can't force someone to be smart.

[Jscobey]

thought i could leave this thread alone but hey why not,

Its me that the OP is talking about. ill be brief and concise. i dont want to publicly put anyone on blast here. just want to clear things up.

ive got 3 simple points

1. we actually adjusted my sag on the shock around 15mm or more. so 4-5mm is not accurate.

2. the first time i had my suspension set up at the track, the guys at catalyst reaction set everything up no problem. didnt even skip a beat when he was using my preload adjuster. i even went so fas as to say "HEY DO YOU THINK I NEED TO REBUILD MY SHOCK? A BUDDY TOLD ME ITS TOAST" and his answer was NO. then last time i went to the track, DAVE MOSS himself was doing the suspension set up at the track so i thought hell why wouldnt i have him set up my suspension. im sure all of you know who DAVE MOSS is. he set everything up and even said some kind words on my customized VTR. again, DAVE MOSS didnt skip a beat when using my preload adjuster or any other part of the shock or the forks for that matter. dont you think if DAVE MOSS thought that ANYTHING at all was wrong with my bike he'd declare it unsafe and unfit for the track? hes a nice enough bloke and im sure he wouldnt want me to crash. So i do apologize but yes i value DAVE MOSS's opinion, who is one of the worlds leading motorcycle suspension experts, a little more than the "home mechanic" who said my shock was toast.

on a side not if my bike was a "deathtrap" that the OP wouldnt even ride "around the block" then why wouldnt tech inspection at any of the track days, dave moss, catalyst reaction, my very very track experienced motorcycle savy friends, the mechanic that my bike gets serviced at regularly, or any other person in the world tell me im riding a ticking time bomb??? the only person i guess smart enough to notice was a guy that saw my bike for no more than 30 minutes, didnt ride it, and looked at the shock for less then 2 minutes.

3. even after all this rant and raving, i made an appointment last week to have the full go around of my shock and forks the day after tomorow. complete rebuilds, and new springs and valving in the forks.

lastly ragrding this whole issue, its not like i was violently opposed to the whole idea of my shock not working. in fact i immediatey started pricing out having it rebuilt. i didnt even question the fact that it wasnt working until person after person told me its fine.

[Jamoi]

He's just concerned for your safety dude, why else would he have posted this thread?

I'd thank him and move on. You don't have to take any advice but at least be grateful it was given.

[VTRDark]

I think all Jscobey is doing is putting his side of the story across which is fair enough. What we don't want is for this to escalate into something else.

Good to hear you have had the suspension checked out though. When one see pics like Hawks shock which broke it makes one think. It's a bit like the suspension linkage pics we have on here..

(:-})

[8541Hawk]

All I can say is thanks for the replies. I left names out as this was actually for me, as like I said I knew I would feel bad and was trying to figure why.
I think Carl nailed it, thanks mate, as it is a Military thing, As an E-5 if one of your guys got hurt, the first thing you did was try to figure out if you could have done something more to explain the danger they were exposing themselves too and options they had.

I guess it is true...."Once a Marine......." damn it.........

While I did leave names out, in a way I am kind of glad for the reply that was posted.
It give me a chance to say where I am coming from.

First, Dave told me my shock was fine also.....Yeah it took a 6-7K miles for it to go but still if it was rebuilt then the whole thing would not of happened.
If you want to throw names around, that is why Dan Kyle set my suspension up.

Also I do know Dave on a personal level as we used to have workshop days at his shop when I lived in the bay area and he was always at the track days.
Then spending a couple of days at Dan's shop, well you would be amazed at what you can learn
So while I am not in the same league as those two, because of them I do have a pretty good handle on a VTR specific suspension and set up.

Add to that the experience of riding through one breaking, and that is why I was concerned,
Another 10MPH and it would have been an instant high side which I would probably just be landing from.

After it happened I was talking with Dan about what happened (Kyle Racing is the biggest Ohlins dealer in the US) and was told straight out that when you put off the service, that is what happens.
The bearing gets crud built up in it and if it locks up, the shaft breaks.

So while it might be just fine, the price you pay if it fails is a High Side.

Though the pre-load adjuster is why I wouldn't ride it.
It didn't seem to move 15mm but no worries, I do know I had to turn it in 3\4 of the way or more before anything happened.
Also as an FYI my adjuster will give around 35mm when cranked all the way in.

That is why I used the floor jack analogy; If the jack is supposed to lift 35" but doesn't start working until you have been pumping it for a while and then only lifts the car 15", would you still crawl under it?
Is it safe, well 99% of the time you can get away with it. Though the one time it decides to fail, there is a very heavy price to pay.

The pre-load adjuster works on the same principal. A seal has leaked somewhere, that is why it will not pump up like it should.
Will it hold, again 99% of the time, you probably can get away with it with maybe trying to pump it up once in a while.
Can it fail catastrophically? Well as a seal is leaking, what are the chances of the o-ring letting go the rest of the way?
If it does let go....... that's right High Side.

You posted a video of you low siding your bike asking for help identifying what went wrong.
I wasn't posting there at the time and found some of the replies humors but what I saw happening was that you bottomed the stock forks while leaned over, tucked the front wheel and went down.
I only bring this up because it was an easy lesson, You experienced how fast and violently you can hit the ground when you have a suspension issue.

I say "easy" lesson, because if something goes wrong out back, well imagine the same speed and force but instead of just hitting the ground, the bike flings you through the air faster that you can process what is happening and to top that off the bike is now chasing you down...... and with more mass they tend to carry speed farther.

As a final though.... well before actually thanking Js for actually making it so I just not worry about it, as it really is none of my business

I guess it all stems from a health fear of high sides. IMHO if a maintenance item is causing even a minor chance of causing a high side, it should be addressed ASAP.
Though I do only have 4 years of running my own bike repair shop and 46 years of riding and wrenching.

So I do truly hope you have no issues and can say you will be amazed at how well the shock works when it is up to specs.

[Jscobey]

Thanks for a kind reply hawk. The shock is going in first thing in the morning along with the forks. They are doing a full rebuild on both. The shock spring is just about right for my weight but I'm having the forks set up for me.

Interesting analysis on the stock forks bottoming out being the cause of my crash. Seems very likley! Only last night I found out that the RC forks have almost an inch more travel than the stock forks.

I do tend to be a little stupid at times and putting things off until it is too late. The shock has been on my mind since that day. Glad to finally get things sorted out. I'd hate to ruin my ohlins. I know you've got my best interest in mind and don't wanna see a rider get hurt from something so easily prevented.

I'm still young and definitely learning the how to's of keeping a bike top notch and safe. Youve been a valuble resource and a big help to me. Anyway maybe your persistence paid off cuz it's finally getting sorted. No hard feelings mate