If so did it cause major damage?
I was out on my Firestorm in an absolute deluge for a couple of hours, parked it up and got under cover for about 20 minutes or so, and when I restarted the engine there were a couple of almighty whallops from somewhere near the front top part of the motor after it had been running for a few seconds. Really scary noises like someone whacking a heavy hammer on an anvil, and certainly not fuel pre-igniting or backfiring etc.,
The engine continues to run OK & with no apparent signs of distress, and no repeat of the problem. So what do you reckon, should I be concerned?
As you probably know water in an internal combustion engine can destroy it as quick as a crusher, so is the VTR airbox poorly sealed and am I going to be able to use the bike on dry days only?
Any anecdotes of similar experiences and remedies would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Granty
Anyone had water get into the VTR engine through the airbox?
no problems here
Once rode from Leeds down to London and it was pissing down the whole way. No problems and definitely stopped for petrol on the way down.
Have also left bike out in the rain and never had a problem either when starting.
Doesn't really answer your question except to say it is not a universal problem.
Have also left bike out in the rain and never had a problem either when starting.
Doesn't really answer your question except to say it is not a universal problem.
Hi Folks
I don't understand it either, but to answer Simons question it definately wasn't the low resonance pop we all experience through the carbs sometimes.
I know this sounds crazy, but it sounded just like a heavy hammer being bashed onto an anvil, i.e. a solid, metallic noise that sounded really serious. However the motor continued to run after this happened (just twice), and was obviously not connected to the revolution of the cranks because it wasn't rythmic in the same way that a buggered bid-end noise is, for example. I just hit the kill switch and called for back-up.
The only reason I pose this question about water entering the combustion chamber is because when the AA turned up to relay my bike back to the dealer, this is something the mechanic posed as a possible cause.
Cheers
(VTR-less) Granty
I don't understand it either, but to answer Simons question it definately wasn't the low resonance pop we all experience through the carbs sometimes.
I know this sounds crazy, but it sounded just like a heavy hammer being bashed onto an anvil, i.e. a solid, metallic noise that sounded really serious. However the motor continued to run after this happened (just twice), and was obviously not connected to the revolution of the cranks because it wasn't rythmic in the same way that a buggered bid-end noise is, for example. I just hit the kill switch and called for back-up.
The only reason I pose this question about water entering the combustion chamber is because when the AA turned up to relay my bike back to the dealer, this is something the mechanic posed as a possible cause.
Cheers
(VTR-less) Granty
Sounds like the bike was runnign really lean as the pilot fuel jet had iced up. If I start my VTR after standing for 6 weeks it does exactly that until the fuel gets where it should be. Had to diagnose from what you posted.
Is it at the dealers now? did it happen recently with all this really cold weather and humidity? Take the tank/air box lid off anf check but I can't see anyway water would get it. Mine has no airbox lid and I don't think it would get in mine - won't goes through the filter.
Del.
Is it at the dealers now? did it happen recently with all this really cold weather and humidity? Take the tank/air box lid off anf check but I can't see anyway water would get it. Mine has no airbox lid and I don't think it would get in mine - won't goes through the filter.
Del.
-
essexbloke
- Posts: 656
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 12:29 pm
- Location: Colchester, England
I've heard the niose once or twice.......over the last 18 months.....never whilst actually riding though..... usually within a few minutes of starting, (which does sound like del's description)
Very unnerving sound, but has never continued, and only ever appeared on rare occasions.....
Sounds like you need someone like Del to give it a tweak.......(i do)
PS, i'm a complete numpty when it comes to spanner work.......so i wouldnt know if it was going pop anyway.........(just kidding)
Very unnerving sound, but has never continued, and only ever appeared on rare occasions.....
Sounds like you need someone like Del to give it a tweak.......(i do)
PS, i'm a complete numpty when it comes to spanner work.......so i wouldnt know if it was going pop anyway.........(just kidding)
Yes the 'Storm is back at the dealership and I must say I can't fault the service that everyone concerned has given me so far.
I called the Honda assistance telephone number and they had an AA patrol to me within the hour. The dealer had already advised me to have the bike relayed direct to their workshop, and have also telephoned to keep me advised about progress. I have been given the e-mail address of the service manager, and have taken the opportunity to send him supplementary information which might help with a diagnosis. I get the impression that they are doing all they can to transform me into a happy customer, which is of course exactly as it should be, but nonetheless it's refreshing to be receiving such professional attention. I just hope that they can sort the problem to my satisfaction, because at the end of the day that'll be the deciding factor. Good public relations will come to nought if the bike doesn't get fixed.
BTW below is a cut & paste article from a technical website that describes the problem I had with the VTR.
ABOUT HYDROLOCK
Hydrostatic lock, hydraulic lock or hydrolock occurs when liquids, typically water, enter an engine cylinder. This can occur from a coolant, oil or fuel leak, but the chief cause is drawing water into the engine through the air induction system (airbox & filter, ducting, throttle body or carburettor, intake manifold).
Internal combustion engines (spark or compression ignition) operating on a two-stroke or four-stroke cycle must employ a compression stroke to compress the charge (usually an air/fuel mixture). Liquids are incompressible; the presence of a liquid in the engine cylinder during the compression stroke generates destructively high cylinder pressures.
Abnormally high cylinder pressures can bend and break pistons, piston pins, connecting rods, crankshafts and ruin bearings and can crack or break cylinder heads and engine blocks. Small amounts of liquids may pass through an engine cycle without damage, but volumes exceeding 40cc (1.4 fluid ounces, or 3 tablespoons) will cause many engines to develop cylinder pressures well in excess of 1000psi. A larger volume of water, up to the combustion chamber volume (usually 60cc to 100cc), will generate increasingly high cylinder pressure during the completion of the compression stroke. Volumes of water that exceed the combustion chamber volume will "stop" a running engine through true hydrostatic lock. Something expensive always bends or breaks when this happens.
Hydrolock may occur while the engine is running, the work of the compression stroke being supplied by engine's rotational inertia.
SOME OTHER QUOTES
· Water and engines do not mix very well, and when they do it almost always results in bent pistons, valves and crankshaft commonly called "hydo-locking". If you think this sounds expensive your right.
· Without a doubt the quickest way to do the most amount of damage to your engine is to suck water in through your air intake. Water does not compress as air does. If water is sucked all the way down into a cylinder the intake valve closes and the piston comes up on its compression stroke, the piston will try to compress the water, which is not possible. The list of parts that could or will break is a long one, but one of the most common is a hole blown through your engine block, or simply a cracked block.
· When water is drawn in through the air filter it enters the engine via the inlet manifold and hydraulically locks it up. Basically, the engine seizes causing expensive damage.
I expect you can see why I'm so worried now!
I called the Honda assistance telephone number and they had an AA patrol to me within the hour. The dealer had already advised me to have the bike relayed direct to their workshop, and have also telephoned to keep me advised about progress. I have been given the e-mail address of the service manager, and have taken the opportunity to send him supplementary information which might help with a diagnosis. I get the impression that they are doing all they can to transform me into a happy customer, which is of course exactly as it should be, but nonetheless it's refreshing to be receiving such professional attention. I just hope that they can sort the problem to my satisfaction, because at the end of the day that'll be the deciding factor. Good public relations will come to nought if the bike doesn't get fixed.
BTW below is a cut & paste article from a technical website that describes the problem I had with the VTR.
ABOUT HYDROLOCK
Hydrostatic lock, hydraulic lock or hydrolock occurs when liquids, typically water, enter an engine cylinder. This can occur from a coolant, oil or fuel leak, but the chief cause is drawing water into the engine through the air induction system (airbox & filter, ducting, throttle body or carburettor, intake manifold).
Internal combustion engines (spark or compression ignition) operating on a two-stroke or four-stroke cycle must employ a compression stroke to compress the charge (usually an air/fuel mixture). Liquids are incompressible; the presence of a liquid in the engine cylinder during the compression stroke generates destructively high cylinder pressures.
Abnormally high cylinder pressures can bend and break pistons, piston pins, connecting rods, crankshafts and ruin bearings and can crack or break cylinder heads and engine blocks. Small amounts of liquids may pass through an engine cycle without damage, but volumes exceeding 40cc (1.4 fluid ounces, or 3 tablespoons) will cause many engines to develop cylinder pressures well in excess of 1000psi. A larger volume of water, up to the combustion chamber volume (usually 60cc to 100cc), will generate increasingly high cylinder pressure during the completion of the compression stroke. Volumes of water that exceed the combustion chamber volume will "stop" a running engine through true hydrostatic lock. Something expensive always bends or breaks when this happens.
Hydrolock may occur while the engine is running, the work of the compression stroke being supplied by engine's rotational inertia.
SOME OTHER QUOTES
· Water and engines do not mix very well, and when they do it almost always results in bent pistons, valves and crankshaft commonly called "hydo-locking". If you think this sounds expensive your right.
· Without a doubt the quickest way to do the most amount of damage to your engine is to suck water in through your air intake. Water does not compress as air does. If water is sucked all the way down into a cylinder the intake valve closes and the piston comes up on its compression stroke, the piston will try to compress the water, which is not possible. The list of parts that could or will break is a long one, but one of the most common is a hole blown through your engine block, or simply a cracked block.
· When water is drawn in through the air filter it enters the engine via the inlet manifold and hydraulically locks it up. Basically, the engine seizes causing expensive damage.
I expect you can see why I'm so worried now!
To be honest I think it would have just stopped the engine dead, not any noise like you have described. Have you even been to an off-road event with land rovers etc (I haven't got one btw) and watch what happens when they go too deep. It'll just cut out. I don't think water will get in unless A) you put ya hose pipe in between the tank and the frame at the front and then put a 180 degree bend in it and then poke it up the snorkel (ain't gonna happen), then it's still got to get past the filter. Could be fuel but very doubtfulb as if it was going in the through an open needle valve in the float bowl it's still metered by the jets, you would burn it off before the quantity was toooo much. The coolant that passed through the carbs does not even enter the carb body itself, the V pieces are just held in place by the body and the steel bracket.
The only thing it could be but also doubtful is that your head gasket has gone, check the fluid level and if it's all gone then, that's it. A small leak would not cause hydralic lock etc.
All this aside I could be talkin bollox but let us know what they find, if they do.
Why did the AA pick it up or was it not running? how many miles has it done since new? I hope you are not paying anything for them to check it out, be worht checking that with them too.
Del.
The only thing it could be but also doubtful is that your head gasket has gone, check the fluid level and if it's all gone then, that's it. A small leak would not cause hydralic lock etc.
All this aside I could be talkin bollox but let us know what they find, if they do.
Why did the AA pick it up or was it not running? how many miles has it done since new? I hope you are not paying anything for them to check it out, be worht checking that with them too.
Del.
Hi Del
The bike hasn't even had it's first service yet, in fact it was only 28 days old when this happened, and has done under 600 miles. No, there was no charge by the AA, and the dealership recommended that it was relayed to them, and not ridden for safety.
I'm pleased to read your description of the airbox and how unlikely it would be for me to have had a water ingress problem. Trouble is, if I discard that theory I'm left with sweet FA as the cause.
Hopefully the garage will be able to identify the fault, I've asked them to compression test the cylinders and check that they are still at the manufacturers level, & I presume visual checks like cracked block/head blown gaskets etc will be conducted too. My dilemma now is if I should keep the bike at all. I've had that much trouble with the VTR in the few weeks I've owned it that I believe I have a good case for returning it as unfit for the purpose intended, under the sale of goods act.
I'd much rather have a reliable motorcycle though, and could do without the hassle of civil litigation, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a positive outcome.
The bike hasn't even had it's first service yet, in fact it was only 28 days old when this happened, and has done under 600 miles. No, there was no charge by the AA, and the dealership recommended that it was relayed to them, and not ridden for safety.
I'm pleased to read your description of the airbox and how unlikely it would be for me to have had a water ingress problem. Trouble is, if I discard that theory I'm left with sweet FA as the cause.
Hopefully the garage will be able to identify the fault, I've asked them to compression test the cylinders and check that they are still at the manufacturers level, & I presume visual checks like cracked block/head blown gaskets etc will be conducted too. My dilemma now is if I should keep the bike at all. I've had that much trouble with the VTR in the few weeks I've owned it that I believe I have a good case for returning it as unfit for the purpose intended, under the sale of goods act.
I'd much rather have a reliable motorcycle though, and could do without the hassle of civil litigation, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a positive outcome.
engine noise
Dare I say it could this be the lowest milage cam chain tensioner failure 
W@zzA
The CCT failing was my first thought too, but I discounted that diagnosis as the noise didn’t continue & present the usual symptoms.
I had my bike relayed into the dealership, where as expected they said that they could find nothing wrong, so I’m back to square one. They completed the 600 mile first service while it was with them (& forgot to stamp the service book!), and they say that they have synchronised the carbs (big deal, that’s part of the service anyway), and the bike certainly seems to be running better now.
None of this explains what the f*!k it was that caused the enormous crashes and bangs that came from my motor, but at least I’ve done the responsible thing and given the dealer the opportunity to remedy any fault. If it all goes tits-up in the future they will not be able to claim negligence by me, but I on the other hand have copies of all correspondence and will be in a strong position if civil litigation is my only recourse.
Interestingly the dealers explanation for my problem is that the VTR engine ticks-over at close to stalling speed, and any slight twist of the throttle will dump sufficient fuel into the cylinders to overpower the piston rising on the induction stroke and attempt to force it back in the opposite direction before it reaches top dead centre and effectively tries to reverse the rotation of the engine.
I have no technical expertise, so I didn’t feel confident to question this theory, but my understanding of the induction/compression/ignition/exhaust cycle of a 4-stroke engine means that the mass of the spinning flywheel & crank should be more than sufficient to ensure that the engine does not spontaneously and presumably, catastrophically reverse direction on occasions. Otherwise we’d all be riding/driving/flying around in transports that just blew apart every now and again. Or have I missed something?
Anyway it’s good the have the Yellow ‘Storm back, even with its faults. I’ve been taking it the long way to & from work and giving it a damn good thrashing which has thrown up no new problems I’m pleased to say, but has highlighted that the suspension adjustments I made need further refinements as cornering forces at higher velocity are overwhelming the stock components. Still, I’ve managed to save up about 20% of the money needed to get Roger to sort the bouncy bits already, so as long as the motor holds up I’ll be sorted by next Spring!
The CCT failing was my first thought too, but I discounted that diagnosis as the noise didn’t continue & present the usual symptoms.
I had my bike relayed into the dealership, where as expected they said that they could find nothing wrong, so I’m back to square one. They completed the 600 mile first service while it was with them (& forgot to stamp the service book!), and they say that they have synchronised the carbs (big deal, that’s part of the service anyway), and the bike certainly seems to be running better now.
None of this explains what the f*!k it was that caused the enormous crashes and bangs that came from my motor, but at least I’ve done the responsible thing and given the dealer the opportunity to remedy any fault. If it all goes tits-up in the future they will not be able to claim negligence by me, but I on the other hand have copies of all correspondence and will be in a strong position if civil litigation is my only recourse.
Interestingly the dealers explanation for my problem is that the VTR engine ticks-over at close to stalling speed, and any slight twist of the throttle will dump sufficient fuel into the cylinders to overpower the piston rising on the induction stroke and attempt to force it back in the opposite direction before it reaches top dead centre and effectively tries to reverse the rotation of the engine.
I have no technical expertise, so I didn’t feel confident to question this theory, but my understanding of the induction/compression/ignition/exhaust cycle of a 4-stroke engine means that the mass of the spinning flywheel & crank should be more than sufficient to ensure that the engine does not spontaneously and presumably, catastrophically reverse direction on occasions. Otherwise we’d all be riding/driving/flying around in transports that just blew apart every now and again. Or have I missed something?
Anyway it’s good the have the Yellow ‘Storm back, even with its faults. I’ve been taking it the long way to & from work and giving it a damn good thrashing which has thrown up no new problems I’m pleased to say, but has highlighted that the suspension adjustments I made need further refinements as cornering forces at higher velocity are overwhelming the stock components. Still, I’ve managed to save up about 20% of the money needed to get Roger to sort the bouncy bits already, so as long as the motor holds up I’ll be sorted by next Spring!
engine noise
I remember on my first storm Which I used to ride to the centre of London, it used to spit back through the carbs and stall a lot at traffic lights(one dealer I'd spoken to said its been known to pop the carbs out of the rubber inlet stubs). This was only a prob with the engine on tickover for longish periods and quite common with large capacity twins with carbs, when it happens it can sometimes make quite a loud thump! If you havn't had a big twin before it's a different experience.
I fitted some splitfire sparkplugs and although it didn't cure the problem the bike ran much better in traffic, in fact I've got the same plugs in my second storm and they've done about 25K on both bikes!
Warren.
I fitted some splitfire sparkplugs and although it didn't cure the problem the bike ran much better in traffic, in fact I've got the same plugs in my second storm and they've done about 25K on both bikes!
Warren.