The only way to get your wheel straight is by using the string method. If you just count the same number of turns out from fully in, it will likely be wrong. I did that when I rebuilt mine after the accident and nearly highsided as I fishtailed down the road on a handful of throttle. When I checked it with string, it was about 15mm out! Once it's aligned properly with string, you can then adjust by counting the same number of turns but don't do that straight off. Get the string out and save yourself the hassle.
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Chain Tension Issue
Chain Tension Issue
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!
Re: Chain Tension Issue
Hi gents,
Thank you for all the responses. I'll try to summarise what I believe is the issue and why, also what else happened subsequently following reassembly. My apologies for leading you all up the garden path earlier with my "random tension" comment.
I believe the axle is worn. The reason for this is, that the wheel has movement from front to back during rotation and always at the same point. The movement is 2mm at the outside edge of the tyre. This obviously is not definitive as the tyre will not be uniform. However, I have also taken a precise gauge of the amount of movement from the rim, also from the sprocket carrier using a fixed point of reference and a feeler gauge. Such a small amount, when amplified by the length of the chain, would increase tension and seems to indicate that this is the problem. The chain is, I would say, around 5mm tighter at its tightest point and it would not take much of a pull to do that. Even a minute adjustment on the chain tensioners raises the chain considerably, and essentially is the same effect.
It seems to be similar to the effect of a cam.
The fact that the entire wheel moves rules out an ovalised sprocket, the sprocket carrier or the cush drive rubbers (which looked fine). So its narrowed down to worn bearings or axle. I have checked for lateral movement of the wheel which would indicate worn bearings, there is none, it is rock solid. The wheel turns but there is increased resistance at the point where the chain becomes tight.
I presume by spindle, AMCQ is referring to what I have been calling the axle. There are marks on the axle, but I am not sure if they should be present or not. I have nothing to compare it against. I did test the axle initially on plate glass, but there was nothing noticeable. I agree this seems strange.
The wheels are now correctly aligned, or as close to perfect as I can get. I'd say they are within 1-2mm. The chain is still slightly slack, but this is not a problem to correct.
Following reassembly I fired the bike up and engaged the side stand cut off to test it (as I had removed the whole stand for cleaning). The engine did cut out, although would not restart. Additionally, I could not change down gears so I thought I'd popped the clutch return piston out.
The gear change link to the rod was in an incorrect position, I adjusted this but I could only shift up gears and not down. Additionally, the engine continually failed to start so I thought the side stand cut off was fused.
Anyway, I stuck the bike back on the stand, repositioned the gear link so it had proper clearance, I also removed the front sprocket cover again, pulled out the clutch return push rod and reinserted it firmly, then carefully refitted the cover. Then I tried to fire it up again, this was after 10 minute or so. The engine started and now the gears select freely. I have no clue what would cause this sort of behaviour. I wondered if the safety cut off had some kind of timer? I thought I was going to have to bleed the clutch too.
All in all, a hell of a day.
If you guys think my logic is flawed, I'd be grateful if you'd point it out because I'm contemplating an axle replacement. I'm not even totally sure that the bike is safe to ride, but indeed, if it IS the axle, then it was like this before I started the work.
Thanks once again for all the responses and advice.
Thank you for all the responses. I'll try to summarise what I believe is the issue and why, also what else happened subsequently following reassembly. My apologies for leading you all up the garden path earlier with my "random tension" comment.
I believe the axle is worn. The reason for this is, that the wheel has movement from front to back during rotation and always at the same point. The movement is 2mm at the outside edge of the tyre. This obviously is not definitive as the tyre will not be uniform. However, I have also taken a precise gauge of the amount of movement from the rim, also from the sprocket carrier using a fixed point of reference and a feeler gauge. Such a small amount, when amplified by the length of the chain, would increase tension and seems to indicate that this is the problem. The chain is, I would say, around 5mm tighter at its tightest point and it would not take much of a pull to do that. Even a minute adjustment on the chain tensioners raises the chain considerably, and essentially is the same effect.
It seems to be similar to the effect of a cam.
The fact that the entire wheel moves rules out an ovalised sprocket, the sprocket carrier or the cush drive rubbers (which looked fine). So its narrowed down to worn bearings or axle. I have checked for lateral movement of the wheel which would indicate worn bearings, there is none, it is rock solid. The wheel turns but there is increased resistance at the point where the chain becomes tight.
I presume by spindle, AMCQ is referring to what I have been calling the axle. There are marks on the axle, but I am not sure if they should be present or not. I have nothing to compare it against. I did test the axle initially on plate glass, but there was nothing noticeable. I agree this seems strange.
The wheels are now correctly aligned, or as close to perfect as I can get. I'd say they are within 1-2mm. The chain is still slightly slack, but this is not a problem to correct.
Following reassembly I fired the bike up and engaged the side stand cut off to test it (as I had removed the whole stand for cleaning). The engine did cut out, although would not restart. Additionally, I could not change down gears so I thought I'd popped the clutch return piston out.
The gear change link to the rod was in an incorrect position, I adjusted this but I could only shift up gears and not down. Additionally, the engine continually failed to start so I thought the side stand cut off was fused.
Anyway, I stuck the bike back on the stand, repositioned the gear link so it had proper clearance, I also removed the front sprocket cover again, pulled out the clutch return push rod and reinserted it firmly, then carefully refitted the cover. Then I tried to fire it up again, this was after 10 minute or so. The engine started and now the gears select freely. I have no clue what would cause this sort of behaviour. I wondered if the safety cut off had some kind of timer? I thought I was going to have to bleed the clutch too.
All in all, a hell of a day.
If you guys think my logic is flawed, I'd be grateful if you'd point it out because I'm contemplating an axle replacement. I'm not even totally sure that the bike is safe to ride, but indeed, if it IS the axle, then it was like this before I started the work.
Thanks once again for all the responses and advice.
Chain Tension Issue
Are you sure that the rear axle nut is torqued up correctly and the wheel adjusters and sliders are both done up right because if either of these are incorrect the rear axle will move backwards and forwards a little in the sliders.
Sent from my brain using my hands with that Tapatalk thingemybob.
Sent from my brain using my hands with that Tapatalk thingemybob.
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!
Re: Chain Tension Issue
pm me your address and i'll come over,weather permitting
Re: Chain Tension Issue
]tinysmall wrote:Are you sure that the rear axle nut is torqued up correctly and the wheel adjusters and sliders are both done up right because if either of these are incorrect the rear axle will move backwards and forwards a little in the sliders.
Sent from my brain using my hands with that Tapatalk thingemybob.
I think so mate, 93nm for the rear axle nut using a calibrated torque wrench. What I did was adjust the tensioners then pull back on the wheel whilst nipping it up to around 50nm, then fully tighten. So I think its right.
Indeed, the tension does change when you fully tighten the axle nut but i adjusted to compensate for it.
I guess I should add that I have also tried deliberately putting the wheel out of alignment drastically but it made little difference to the actual tight spot although the chain was tighter all around as you'd expect.
I'm pretty sure its right but I'd need someone to check it to be sure. Tattoo, nice offer, yhmp...!
Chain Tension Issue
You should push forward on the wheel, not pull it back otherwise the tensioners aren't actually tensioning anything and the wheel can move.
Sent from my brain using my hands with that Tapatalk thingemybob.
Sent from my brain using my hands with that Tapatalk thingemybob.
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!
Chain Tension Issue
Although I'm tired and working nights so that might be wrong.
Sent from my brain using my hands with that Tapatalk thingemybob.
Sent from my brain using my hands with that Tapatalk thingemybob.
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!
Re: Chain Tension Issue
The little locking nut thing is a pain for sure. Tattoo is coming over tomorrow with his, so we'll see how the land lies with fresh heads and a bike for comparison.
We just had a long chat and we're thinking maybe wheel bearings now as it turns out I didnt test them rigourously enough.
I'll post on here regarding the outcome.
Cheers guys.
We just had a long chat and we're thinking maybe wheel bearings now as it turns out I didnt test them rigourously enough.
I'll post on here regarding the outcome.
Cheers guys.
Re: Chain Tension Issue
You can test the wheel and stuff but to be 100% certain, it's worth taking it back off and visually inspecting the bearings and getting a finger in there for a feel (giggidy).
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience!
Re: Chain Tension Issue
That is correct Tiny.tinysmall wrote:You should push forward on the wheel, not pull it back otherwise the tensioners aren't actually tensioning anything and the wheel can move.
vtryorks, I'm more inclined to think you have a wheel bearing(s) or sprocket bearing on the way out. If there is any movement diagonally while grabbing the rear tyre with both hands (looking at a clock face, one hand at 10 minutes to and the other at 20 minutes past) trying to rock the wheel, then the wheel bearing(s) must be suspect. That test is best done with the rear end on a paddock stand or similar.
Chris.
Re: Chain Tension Issue
Hi guys,
Double checked it today and also Tattoo had a look and we both agree there is no play in the bearings.
The wheels are in perfect alignment but the tight spot persists so tbh I'm still at a loss as to whats causing it. Its around 5mm in difference of slack, maybe 7, at a specific point in the rotation. You can definitely feel increased friction on the rear wheel at this point too when its on a stand.
Took the bike out for a very careful ride and everything feels normal, Tattoo followed and did not see the chain lifting or anything strange. However, clearly with such a difference in tension, something is amiss somewhere.
Anyone have any other ideas? This is perplexing.
Huge thanks to Tattoo for coming over today. Top bloke.
Double checked it today and also Tattoo had a look and we both agree there is no play in the bearings.
The wheels are in perfect alignment but the tight spot persists so tbh I'm still at a loss as to whats causing it. Its around 5mm in difference of slack, maybe 7, at a specific point in the rotation. You can definitely feel increased friction on the rear wheel at this point too when its on a stand.
Took the bike out for a very careful ride and everything feels normal, Tattoo followed and did not see the chain lifting or anything strange. However, clearly with such a difference in tension, something is amiss somewhere.
Anyone have any other ideas? This is perplexing.
Huge thanks to Tattoo for coming over today. Top bloke.
Re: Chain Tension Issue
The only thing I recall recently was Clive Andrews saying he had destroyed a DID chain really quickly and pointed doubt at the quality of the manufacture. Doesn't help you much I know.
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
F3, 954 USD front, K Tech springs, Braced swinger, Ohlins shock, Six spoke Mockesini wheels, Harris rearsets, QaT, Flywheel diet!, A&L stacks, stick coils, K&N, FP Ti jets, Mori pipe's [colour]
F3, 954 USD front, K Tech springs, Braced swinger, Ohlins shock, Six spoke Mockesini wheels, Harris rearsets, QaT, Flywheel diet!, A&L stacks, stick coils, K&N, FP Ti jets, Mori pipe's [colour]
Re: Chain Tension Issue
Regarding the chain, Tattoo and I were considering the possibility that a slightly tight soft link in the chain (caused by me), could cause this.
However, the tension problem occurrs no matter where the soft link is, whether its on a sprocket during that rotation, or not.
I think its worth relinking the chain anyway at this point, just to rule it out. Any thoughts on that particular potential cause?
However, the tension problem occurrs no matter where the soft link is, whether its on a sprocket during that rotation, or not.
I think its worth relinking the chain anyway at this point, just to rule it out. Any thoughts on that particular potential cause?
-
benny hedges
- Posts: 6110
- Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 5:09 pm
- Location: Warrington
Re: Chain Tension Issue
take it off, clean it in a bucket of diesel or chain cleaner & inspect every link.
does that sound ott???
well i wish i'd inspected mine proper before it snapped & took out the hugger & clutch slave mounts.
also check you have the right spacer in the right place on the rear wheel and the front sprocket is sat proper.
if it does snap on you it could write the engine off, saw half your foot off or throw you off under a truck.
it's easier to do on the storm than most other bikes...to get the chain off you only need to remove the sprocket cover & front sprocket, left hanger & rear wheel, and undo the front of the hugger if you hve one fitted.
do your rivetting on the bench where you can check it properly, and maybe next time, buy an endless chain.
just a thought... when you wheel the bike backwards does the chain make a vile dinging sound? if so maybe the sprockets are fooked.
never fit a new chain on old sprockets - even if they 'look' ok!
it;s not the rear wheel bearings or sprocket carrier bearing causing the tightness is it???
does that sound ott???
well i wish i'd inspected mine proper before it snapped & took out the hugger & clutch slave mounts.
also check you have the right spacer in the right place on the rear wheel and the front sprocket is sat proper.
if it does snap on you it could write the engine off, saw half your foot off or throw you off under a truck.
it's easier to do on the storm than most other bikes...to get the chain off you only need to remove the sprocket cover & front sprocket, left hanger & rear wheel, and undo the front of the hugger if you hve one fitted.
do your rivetting on the bench where you can check it properly, and maybe next time, buy an endless chain.
just a thought... when you wheel the bike backwards does the chain make a vile dinging sound? if so maybe the sprockets are fooked.
never fit a new chain on old sprockets - even if they 'look' ok!
it;s not the rear wheel bearings or sprocket carrier bearing causing the tightness is it???
You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when posting something which you later rely on in quote. Anything you do say may be ripped to sh*t.
Re: Chain Tension Issue
it's a brand new chain and sprocket set benny,the bearings feel good,no movement or noise... i'd swear the sprocket was oval but i sat and watched it through a full rotation and it looked good..
i can only discribe it as...if you set the tooth number stamp(45T) at 12noon as referance point then turn it 1 full rotation the tight spot is 12 noon every rotation of the sprocket,every 45 teeth..any ideas?
i can only discribe it as...if you set the tooth number stamp(45T) at 12noon as referance point then turn it 1 full rotation the tight spot is 12 noon every rotation of the sprocket,every 45 teeth..any ideas?