homeless guy shot dead by police in LA

[agentpineapple]

still very bad policing imho, ok one crazy person versus how many officers, and it ended the way it did.
pepper spray/mace, or taser's could have been used to subdue the man, and surely any police officer carrying a gun, who then has to physically confront a person, must be aware and trained to protect their firearm from the person they are confronting, it seems that a lot of bad decisions were made.
perhaps they should use this video when training officers in how not to police similar situations.

[Big_Jim59]

One of the most dangerous things about dealing with the police is the increase in force as the resistance increases. The police are representatives of the "state." In that capacity they wield the power of the state and they can't back down and won't. They will increase the force necessary to subdue you if you continue to resist. When I was younger I had a riding buddy that was a retired cop. He liked to wrestle but I had to put a stop to it. Every time I got the upper hand he would move to actually hurt me. That was his training but it was a bit unsettling.

[8541Hawk]

still very bad policing imho, ok one crazy person versus how many officers, and it ended the way it did.
pepper spray/mace, or taser's could have been used to subdue the man, and surely any police officer carrying a gun, who then has to physically confront a person, must be aware and trained to protect their firearm from the person they are confronting, it seems that a lot of bad decisions were made.
perhaps they should use this video when training officers in how not to police similar situations.

I can see where you are coming from and the line of thought does have merits but...... you knew that was coming....lol

First is what do you do if the spray or tazer doesn't work? They are not 100% effective 100% of the time.
I have never been tazed so we'll start with the OC gases. Sure they can be uncomfortable but it does take much to build up a tolerance to it.
In the Corps they use to run us trough the OC chamber and blast us on a regular basis, to know what to do and to build tolerance.
After a few months it did next to nothing.

For some this comes naturally, just like spicy food doesn't bother everyone.

Now for tazers, a good tool but again not always effective. A thick shirt can be enough for the probes not to make good contact and your tazer is useless.
Again, if you go to the vid with audio you can clearly hear the tazer firing multiple times with no effect.

Which leads to the gun. Sure it is a good idea to keep your firearm as far away from the perpetrator as possible.
Though how can you go "hands on" and try to stop this person from attacking you, while at the same time keeping your firearm out of there reach?
I can't see a possible way to do this unless you stand at a distance and just shoot the guy from there.

As for getting his hands on the offices weapon. He never got it out of the holster, as it still hand the safety strap in place.
So while they were fighting over the weapon, the perpetrator never goy complete control of it, or we would have dead officers.

While I have seen wrong doings by law enforcement I also see them being placed in a no win situation.

Do we want our law enforcement to run away if someone confronts them?
The get cries of you should have done this or that..... yet little is said about the person who caused the issue.

I am not sure what is said about him in some news outlets but He was a parole violator as he disappeared after doing 14 yrs hard time for violent offenses.
Living with a stolen identity, sell drugs and attacking the folks around him (all on video) but he is portrayed as a "poor victim" and the officers that respond and had to deal with this pillar of society
are the bad guys.

To me the whole world is just going crazy.
The other day, while watching the news,I saw a fine young woman at one of these protests, while being interview she had what I would a very interesting and telling statement.

When asked why she was there her reply was, "Oh because the police are racists. I mean when they are around I have to watch what I say and can't just say anything I want and also I have to do what they tell me, so they are racists"

Really? Though I do blame our so called "news" for much of the unrest.

I could go on but all I can say is while the police are human and can be fallible it is still a job I could never do and what would the place be like without them around?

[Big_Jim59]

To me the whole world is just going crazy.
The other day, while watching the news,I saw a fine young woman at one of these protests, while being interview she had what I would a very interesting and telling statement.

When asked why she was there her reply was, "Oh because the police are racists. I mean when they are around I have to watch what I say and can't just say anything I want and also I have to do what they tell me, so they are racists"

You make a really interesting point and it is something I have been thinking about a long time. There are certain attitudes that are attributed to race (skin color) but have more to do with culture than anything else. There are principles, in western culture that we take for granted, like an individual's responsibility for the great good of society. For example you don't yell "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater. Even though you have free speech this is being irresponsible to your fellow human beings. We take this as a given and yet I don't think this kind of thing gets much traction in other cultures and often times those cultures live among us.

[bigtwinthing]

5 officers and 1 bloke. 1 officer should have pulled a gun on him and tells him to lay down and another officer puts the cuffs on. If he doesn't do it, shoot him in the thigh, bet he does what he's told then! No ones dead and the Police look better that 4 or 5 shooting him dead! Result.

[VTRDark]

One thing that does spring to mind is that we don't have so many people on Crystal Meth over here. CS gas, pepper sprays, maybe even a tazer is not going to stop someone on a meth frenzy. I've not watched the vid so don't know if the guy was high on drugs or anything. But you combine the drug issues and the availability of firearms. Just saying.....they do have different or at least worst issues to deal with than here. Give it 10 years though and we will be the same, were seem to follow along behind the US. Crystal meth is here and slowly on the increase. Next our police will be armed, they are talking about it at the moment. The only thing that wont happen here is the availability of firearms. Legal ones that is. And I don't think that will ever happen as we don't have a Cowboy and Indian history and constitution in place. It's all Mr Colts fault

(:-})

[agentpineapple]

5 officers and 1 bloke. 1 officer should have pulled a gun a gun on him and tells him to lay down and another officer puts the cuffs on. If he doesn't do it, shoot him in the thigh, bet he does what he's told then! No ones dead and the Police look better that 4 or 5 shooting him dead! Result.

that's my point exactly paul, this was handled very badly and it should be used as a tool to show trainee officers what not to do.

[bigtwinthing]

5 officers and 1 bloke. 1 officer should have pulled a gun a gun on him and tells him to lay down and another officer puts the cuffs on. If he doesn't do it, shoot him in the thigh, bet he does what he's told then! No ones dead and the Police look better that 4 or 5 shooting him dead! Result.

that's my point exactly paul, this was handled very badly and it should be used as a toll to show trainee officers what not to do.

i totally agree AP ask first, persuade second.

[8541Hawk]

5 officers and 1 bloke. 1 officer should have pulled a gun on him and tells him to lay down and another officer puts the cuffs on. If he doesn't do it, shoot him in the thigh, bet he does what he's told then! No ones dead and the Police look better that 4 or 5 shooting him dead! Result.

While full of logic.....this is the real world.
Though it does have a few flaws.....
So the cops pull their weapons on arrival at every call....got to be fair and not discriminate.... tell everyone to hit the ground and then shoot you if you don't comply fast enough.....
can you see a few problems with this?

But there are also other faults.
If they followed your scenario here, the officers would be disciplined and most likely fired for violating his civil rights.
Add that everyone would condemn them for being so aggressive and why didn't they try to have a peaceful resolution before just pulling a weapon
Then the city would pay millions to settle and the message sent is attack the cops...hope the shoot so they get their lives destroyed and you're set for life.

So once again I don't always agree with the actions shown, I also try to look at the situation as the officer is just another human and what to you expect them to do?

Also in case it is not reported there, it seems a news crew was filming in that area today.
Out of nowhere a homeless guy attacks them.... and they call the police.

And wait for it...... the guy attacked the cops as soon as they showed up and tried to take an officers weapon while fighting with them.... this time with the news crew right there.
The difference was this time, they got the guy under control..... after tazing him 3 times but still what do we expect from these guys?

I guess I just feel that while they should be held to a high standard they also shouldn't be instantly condemned for doing an all but impossible job IMHO

[agentpineapple]

of course the police have a difficult job, a job that's getting tougher year on year, but I just couldn't defend these guys. they messed up pure and simple, I bet if you asked them if they should/could have done things differently, ending in a better safer end result, they'd say yes. of course this is if's but's and maybe's.
and yes some would argue that the guy who was killed was asking for it, and for lack of a better description was a waste of air. but even so it could and should have been handled better.

[Salty Dog]

Sadly, just another video to add to the already long list of US Police killing people.

The question should be regarding the use of excessive force.
Seriously, how many 6"+ Solid Built Cops does it take to control a situation of one or two homeless people.
Just like the homeless guy camping that was stalked, shot and killed by 4 Officers and Dog.

What ever happened to controlling a situation?
Either being calm and collected, or keeping a safe distance, or ordering them to get on their knees with hands behind their heads before you approach.

Then, there is just the pure ethical handling by police.
Lets look at the guy sleeping on the street, FFS, do you think he sleeps there by choice?
Do think he is proud? Do you think, hang on, this poor guy might have a mental illness or some other social problem...

Lets look at the Police, paid $50K a year, given a uniform, given a car, given a gun, no doubt he has a home, friends, a social life...

Yet these Cops don't look very empathetic to me. Sure, the homeless might have a gun or a knife.... But there is a right and wrong way to handle a situation. The poor guy is already down on luck in life, fallen through the cracks, would get ignored everyday by passes by, sleeps out in the cold and rain. Any idea how you might be felling about life after all that.... Then he gets a beaten, tazered and shot because some people he has never meet wanted to come and dictate the Law to him.

There is one common theme, this keeps on happening in America!
And unlike Australia, they keep covering up for Officers involved over there.
That has totally gone here, no brotherhood anymore, you stuff up, its on your head, every other cop will hang you out to dry.





This is an interesting Video with some actual Police footage on how they handle intercepting someone.

[8541Hawk]

Well sorry but I am starting to feel like I am talking to a wall.

The last 2 post state how the police messed up and handled the situation poorly.

While I am just a guy on the net I am also someone who lives right where this happened and it would appear have a bit more coverage.
Like I stated there is a video of 3 officers calmly talking with the man that was killed. He attacked out of the blue and it went from there.

Now all this other stuff added in about some stalking or another.
I guess I'll just let you guys argue as it is starting to feel like bash the US day instead of an actual conversation.

Carry On.

[Salty Dog]

Now all this other stuff added in about some stalking or another.

Stalking related to this video:

Not bashing America, just perhaps certain parts of its Policing.
Seems a sentiment also held by a many American folk that went out in protest.

We have plenty of the same situations here in Oz, where people that were talking to Police then try and use force, 99.9% of the time no one gets shot dead. Yes, it can happen, but its quite rare. It makes the news here its that rare.
So... why can we do it without killing people and other western countries do it without killing people, and the US seem to have a habit of doing it?

Here is the Australian Police Killing finding from 1989 to 2011.

Police shootings in Australia
In 2013, the Australian Institute of Criminology released a report detailing fatal police shootings between 1989 and 2011. In that period, police fatally shot 105 people. The victims were almost entirely male and 60% were between 20 and 39 years of age.

Of those persons shot by police, 42% were suffering a mental illness at the time of the shooting. Schizophrenia was the most common illness (59% of those with a mental illness) suffered.

Australia: 105 People shot by Police over 12 years
USA: Average 400 People shot by Police in a single year*. Or 4800 over 12 years.

Granted, you have 10 times our population and more liberal laws on gun ownership.
But there must be a better way?

* http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... 8-2012.xls

Note: The 400 a year above, contradicts the 1000 a year quoted in one of your US news reports i took a screenshot of further above.
I have no idea which is accurate, but it seems its a choice between a High number or a Very High number.

This is not about Bashing America, but the simple fact that this is even a thread in the first place, says something.
Obviously "Societies Expectations" and What is happening isn't in agreence with each other, otherwise it wouldn't even be an issue.

To say there was another video showing 3 Officers talking to the man, then the man attacked "out of the blue"...

Do you think that is some kind of Justification? It may be alarming to you, but America is not the only country where people attack the police.
Police in Oz get attacked, punched, kicked, spat on, threatened, they get attacked by drunk and drug effected people.... and guess what, we don't shoot them.
Even the ones that have gone for an Officers Gun... But, they do fall down a lot of stair cases on the way to the station ;)

I have no doubt the Officers were in the heat of the moment, it all happened so fast, and if homeless guy even touched his gun, it would have been cause for an instant reaction, incase an officer got shot.
Just a shame that many officers couldn't control one person. Then again, some people do ask for it.

[agentpineapple]

don't take this personally hawk, as far as i'm concerned this has nothing to do with country, if the same thing happened in the uk (and i'm sure it does) I would have the same view, my point is simply that the police got it wrong, and as difficult a job as they have it can't be defended.

[8541Hawk]

The point I am trying to make is that if you go by the media, you will not really know what is going on.

It would be like if I judged the happenings in another country by reading the tabloids and then repeating the stuff as facts.

Many of the so called issues are just media hype and controlled flow of information.

To give a quick example, the whole Ferguson debacle.
I find it funny that there is barely any comments about how the federal investigation has finished.
While they did find issues with the department, guess what.....no charges what so ever for the officer.

Why? Because there is clear evidence that it happened just like the officer said it did.
Why did the media only show 4 year old pics of Mr Brown? Everything you have seen was from when he was 14.
Why did the media "forget" to show the video of the strong armed robbery Mr Brown committed where he grabbed the small store clerk by the neck and threw him into the counter?
Why did the media refer to Mr Brown as a "child" when he was 18, I believe 6'6" and 300 lbs?
Why did the media miss the cell phone video that shows the body in the street and you clearly hear two people talking, the first explaining what happened to the second party. Guess what, it is pretty much just as the officer would later say it happened......

If you haven't figured it out yet, it's because people want drama. Its ratings not facts.
Why all the rioting, because people are stupid sheep who believe what they are fed and are too lazy to actually look for the facts.

The Us bashing comment comes from a couple things.
I did take offense to the every OZ cop is great and all US cops are plods.
I would ask, have you ever been here?
Do you know the true story here or just what you have been spoon feed by the media?
I ask because the other "facts" you list are wrong. Plus things like pay, well which part of the country are you talking about as that can be right for a couple places but for 90% of the country that is wrong also.

I also don't know about the "drug" situation in you country or what you have seen.
Meth is a constant issue but PCP has made a comeback.

If you have never seen PCP well you are damn lucky.

The question was ask, "How many big cops does it take for one little homeless guy?"
For what I have seen and what I know as fact I'll put it this way.
You guys can have 6 of the biggest meanest rugby players you can find.
I'll take 1 150lbs toothless homeless dude on PCP
Cage match to the death, I'm beating everything on the PCP guy.

I'll give you a fact you won't find on line (My father was law enforcement so there is your reason for this being a bit personal)
LAPD mid 70s respond to a homeless guy on PCP.
They do the whole respect thing... you know 2 big officers 1 little homeless guy.
Things go bad, homeless guy attacks, gets the first officer on the ground and is killing him (the officer was never able to work again, so his lifeas he had know it was over that night)
Long story short, it took 9 rounds of 9mm to the head to stop the guy.
Even with half his head gone, until they hit the brain stem he would not stop.

So still think shooting him in the leg would be the better option? Maybe a taze would get his attention?
How about if the crazy b8stard has his hands on your family member? Should the cops take a poll of which one should shoot?


Again sorry but it does get a bit personal with the generalizations.
Yes we have issues but most of our officers are great.

I can only hope that before judging, remember,,, US "News" is about as reliable as a tabloid.