Yes, I Really Did Buy It This Way

[VTRDark]

That don't sound good. There is kinda an exhaust blow sound there I can just about hear behind the rattle. I would start with that as it needs doing anyway by sounds of what you have discovered so far. Best to start with the simple things and rule them out first. Maybe take the pipes off and start it up while your waiting on parts. Yeh I know it's going to be loud, but if it looses that high pitch rattle then there's your culprit.

Bottom end sounds are usually more of a deeper knock rather than tap. There is a distinct similarity in sound to a failed CCT but IIRC you checked them and they are all good, but going ahead with manuals as they need replacing anyway. If after fixing the exhaust and fitting manuals you still have the sound then it's time to dig deeper.

Pay particular attention to the timing because if this is out then it can make a similar sound to what you have there. For example if the full 1 1/4 turns (450°) has not been turned anti-clockwise moving from the rear pot to front and the front has been set the first time the FT comes into view at the crank. Easy mistake to make if one is using a ratchet instead of a bar and one has not verified the position of the front cam lobes. The bike still runs but you get the same kind of rattle sound you have.

(:-})

[Big_Jim59]

I talked to the previous owner tonight. Bear in mind that the exhaust system was rattling around and making all kinds of noise when he first started it up. He said that on first start up he could hear a small tapping but the sound but the exhaust noise overwhelmed it. As he rode it got louder until it made so much noise it scared him. It could be a blowing head gasket or it could be a loose rod bearing. I guess the real way to tell is to rev it hard. If it is a rod it will shoot through the case. Easy. I wish I could just pull the sump and look at the rod caps but that's not possible on this engine design.

Now I have to design experiments that tell me more than I know and point me in the right direction. I am thinking of pulling the rear cylinder head just to look. It's pretty easy and will have to be done if I strip the engine.

Is a blown head gasket common?

[popkat]

tighten exhaust, change exhaust gaskets, then if still doing it check the timing.. Thats a total of about 5 sockets and a spanner or two, talk about over complicate things. Even the previous owner describes an exhaust blow. Simple things first.

[VTRDark]

Is a blown head gasket common?

Which bag did you pull that one out off Not a common issue on these bikes, no.

If your head gasket has failed you would also most likely have some coolant leaking and overheating going on, coolant contaminated oil, and/or low compression and rough idle, contaminated plugs etc.

I think you're barking up the wrong side of the tree there and over-thinking things. Time to step away from it, worry about something else for while and come back with a clear mind Oh....and stay off the

(:-})

[sirch345]

I agree (although as already been mentioned not easy to tell 100% from a video) it does sound like an exhaust leak. Worth checking header to cylinder heads joints (as already suggested), you may find a gasket/seal missing going by other things you've found with the exhaust system. Also as already been said, if you've not done so, make sure you don't over look the header joint that is hidden where it goes through the swingarm.

I agree, completely check the exhaust system for leaks first, so you can rule that out before moving on

Just to recap without going over the complete thread again:-

(1) You checked the valve timing using our instructions, and made sure the cam shaft lobes were facing in the right direction for each cylinder.

(2) You checked the valve clearances and found them to be in tolerance.

(3) You have fitted manual CCT's.

I think that is where we are so far

Chris.

[Wicky]

As mentioned with the possible exhaust leak - in the manifold there should be a copper crush ring gasket (part no. 2) if missing/inferior aftermarket part/failed then the micro pulses bypassing the exhaust can sound like a clicking.

http://www.ronayersmotorcycles.com/fich ... veh=132082

[sirch345]

As mentioned with the possible exhaust leak - in the manifold there should be a copper crush ring gasket (part no. 2) if missing/inferior aftermarket part/failed then the micro pulses bypassing the exhaust can sound like a clicking.

http://www.ronayersmotorcycles.com/fich ... veh=132082

that's the joint(s) I'm referring too Wicky. Listening to what Jim came across in another exhaust joint anything is possible

Chris.

[Big_Jim59]

I agree (although as already been mentioned not easy to tell 100% from a video) it does sound like an exhaust leak. Worth checking header to cylinder heads joints (as already suggested), you may find a gasket/seal missing going by other things you've found with the exhaust system. Also as already been said, if you've not done so, make sure you don't over look the header joint that is hidden where it goes through the swingarm.

I agree, completely check the exhaust system for leaks first, so you can rule that out before moving on

Just to recap without going over the complete thread again:-

(1) You checked the valve timing using our instructions, and made sure the cam shaft lobes were facing in the right direction for each cylinder.

(2) You checked the valve clearances and found them to be in tolerance.

(3) You have fitted manual CCT's.

I think that is where we are so far

Chris.

Yes Chris, your summery is correct. I had a good sleep and as cybercarl pointed out, I think I am over thinking this. I have been around Hondas for a long time. I cannot remember ever having come across a big end failure. I used to see them all the time on the old T150 and T160 Triumphs but never on a Honda, especially one that didn't show signs of massive abuse. I think you would have to run it dry of oil and even then the top end would show wear first. The top end looked nice with no sign of scoring on the cam lobes. Also the oil light goes out instantly on start up. In my experience, if you have a big end gone, your oil pressure light will flicker at idle.

One more thing to add to the list of things I have done. The Two Brothers exhaust system was a rattling mess when I first got the bike. The PO had assembled it incorrectly and it was all loose and floppy. My assumption was he never removed or messed with the head pipes since he said he had not and since they are so hard to get to. That's not to say the owner before him didn't mess with things. I did reassemble the system with fresh exhaust gaskets (not at the head but at the pipe junctions). I used a type of aluminum muffler tape (according to the package you use it to patch holes in rusted out mufflers) to wrap the header and give it just a little bit more diameter making the slip on can fit better. I think it's original intended purpose of muffler tape was a bit dubious but for my application it worked a treat. It's pretty nice now.

A blowing exhaust could account for the gradual nature of increasing volume of the sound reported by the PO. The sound hasn't gotten any louder nor the affliction gotten any worse even after I have started the bike a few times. I think the first order of business is to pull the whole exhaust system and give it a good inspection. From studying the pictures in the Haynes manual I have determined that if I pull the sump, the strainer and the oil pump I should be able to inspect the rod cap. I could at least determine is there was play and that would be definitive with small effort.

I started it again this morning and it sure is making a tapping thunking sound. I can feel it with my hand on the engine case.

[sirch345]

I think the first order of business is to pull the whole exhaust system and give it a good inspection.

That sounds like a good option if you have any problems with seized nuts on the cylinder head studs when you go to undo the header pipes, use a nut splitter, then just replace the nuts. That seems to be the easier option by others on this forum, rather than shearing off the studs and having to drill them out. Of course you may have mentioned yours are already free (not seized)

Chris.

[Big_Jim59]

It's such a shame. It starts right up. I did notice that it only make the sound when it is running. You can turn it over with the kill switch off and you hear nothing.

Unfortunately my time is pretty much up for this week. I now have to go back and do all those mundane things like make a living and see to the needs of my aged parents. I may be able to sneak in a few hours in the shop this week as time permits.

Thanks for all the ideas, help and support. It means a lot.

Jim

[VTRDark]

I used a type of aluminum muffler tape (according to the package you use it to patch holes in rusted out mufflers) to wrap the header and give it just a little bit more diameter making the slip on can fit better.

Sounds a bit like Gun Gum, a product we have over here.
http://www.holtsauto.com/products/group ... ust-repair

Not the best stuff and only any good as a temporary measure/bodge, whatever you want to call it. I have used it in the past (needs be sometimes ) and the problem is, that it ends up cracking up from the heat, vibrations and back pressure on these big v twins. Even the thin Aluminium (Aloominum to you ) tape/wrap breaks up after a while.

Use the original Honda graphite type gaskets where you can, especially on the rear link behind the shock.


I also use plenty of High temp silicone sealant on all joins. I believe you call it RTV over there Messy horrible stuff but does the job. It's is easy to clean excess mess off, before it dries, with an old paintbrush and some spirit based cleaner, engine degreasant, petrol or whatever your choice of cleaner is. I even put a small smear around the circumference of the cylinder outlets along with the copper ring gaskets. Then once the exhaust system is all clamped up and before the silicone dries, start the bike up, give it a little rev, and it spits out any excess that's squidged inside the pipes out the back of the cans, switch the engine off and allow to dry overnight.

Stand back, fire one, fire two. Make sure know one is standing behind the bike at the time and the neighbours freshly washed and waxed muscle car is not in the firing line outside the workshop.

From studying the pictures in the Haynes manual I have determined that if I pull the sump, the strainer and the oil pump I should be able to inspect the rod cap.

That is correct sir. Sorry I did mean to mention that in my last post but forgot. You can even remove pistons if you wanted. No need to remove the oil pump though.
http://vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php ... nd#p351630

Do us a favour though. Burn the Haynes manual or stick it on the back shelf and only dig it out for it's tech specs and wiring diagrams if needed. Your much better off folowing the Honda workshop manual along with common sense and your previous mechanical experience. The Haynes will only mislead and get you to remove and replace unnecessary items.

You can download the Honda Workshop manual here

I started it again this morning and it sure is making a tapping thunking sound. I can feel it with my hand on the engine case.

Mmmm that's a bit worrying. Maybe a mechanics stethoscope would be more accurate to track down where it's coming from. Clutch side would be another area to check. Lots of cogs and springs in there and small chain. Don't loose the springs in the anti rattle gear if you decide to start stripping things down. They can fall down into the sump when removing if a rag is not stuffed in the hole below them into the sump.

Some food for thought for you there.

Unfortunately my time is pretty much up for this week

Enjoy your break from it Jim. As I said earlier it's sometimes good to step back from things for a while and come back later with a fresh mind.

(:-})

[Big_Jim59]

I need to be more clear. My use of the "Aloominum" tape was only to fatten up the joint between the Two Bros. can and the end pipe. It is a slip on fit and not a very precise one at that. The tape just gives the pipe a bit more diameter. I did use the correct exhaust gaskets on the rest of the system. If and when I get the bike sorted I will get a muffler shop to spread those pipes just a bit for a more secure fit.

As for the Haynes manual, it was sitting here beside my desk and I only used it, like a child's book, to look at the pictures. It gave a pretty good view of the sump area. I think I will pull the sump and check the rod cap. I should be able to feel any free play and definitely answer the question "is it the bottom end?"

I am going to buy an automotive stethoscope tomorrow. I have too much to do keeping the engine at tick over to mess about with a screwdriver in my ear.

You know, all this is troubling but it sure is also an interesting and fun puzzle. I will have an intimate knowledge of the VTR's inner workings when I am done. The good news is I have a dry and secure place to work, I have the correct tools, no time constants and it's not my only ride. I have not always been so fortunate with my bikes. The only thing that drives me crazy is I can't go out the and rip it all apart. I have adult things I have to do. I'll keep ya posted. It should be interesting.

Jim

[NZSpokes]

One trick for a pipe leak is to get somebody to block both cans, I just use my hands. If the bike stops then your good. If it keeps running than thats your fault.

[Big_Jim59]

I bought a stethoscope while I was out today. When I got back I scurried out to the shop, cranked it up and I put an ear on the engine. I hear a tapping from the rear cylinder and nothing but nice mechanical whirring from the front. I hear nothing from the bottom end so that's good. I must dive into the rear cylinder to see what's up. That means I have to pull the tank again. I am not complaining but that is the worst tank to get back on. I need the hands of a little girl to get all the hoses back in place!

[sirch345]

Just a thought that went through my mind, and I'm not sure if this could happen even. When you pulled out the old original Honda CCT's were the metal caps still on the end of them (they cover the rubber plungerhead) They can come off when removing the old CCT's, like I say I'm not sure if this is even possible, but I don't suppose the metal cap is still in there on the rear cylinder It might be worth having a look at the old CCT's,

Chris.