The CCT Stopper Mod...

[mr.john.coates]

(Oh, no, you say, not another CCT post!)

I'm well into planning this work, having been scared by what could happen and I think I just about understand the way the automatic CCT works and how the stopper mod prevents catastrophic failure.

Two questions though:

1 - I assume the only reason for ensuring you are at TDC on the compression stroke is that, with all valves shut, the cam chain is then not under any tension. You *could* ensure you're not accidently at TDC on the exhaust stroke by connecting a pipe (from my compression tester kit) in place of the spark plug and blowing into the cylinder. If the exhaust valves are open you should be able to tell by feeling the lack of pressure. Would this save a lot of work or do you need to remove the tank etc. to get at the CCTs anyway?

2 - Does anyone have photos of the stopper mod? I think I can visualise where the new rod is inserted, but a photo would really help. I have not come across Honda CCTs before.

Incidently, where is Mr. H in all this? If the CCT is a known weakness, are Honda not offering an improved 'fail-safe' replacement?

Many thanks

Mr. John

[Wicky]

Tank off , air box off - remove rear cam cover > roatate crank accordingly via the timing marks accessed via the alternator cap bolts. Remove & replace rear CCT - rotate crank by a known amount so front CCT can be removed and replaced. See the workshop knowledgebase for the full procedure.

And yes you do need to remove tank & airbox to fit the front CCT, unless you have access to keyhole endoscope and et fingers etc...

Incidently, where is Mr. H in all this? If the CCT is a known weakness, are Honda not offering an improved 'fail-safe' replacement?

Honda used the same design CCts as used on IL4, while they are also known to also be 'weak' they don't grenade the engine as catastrophically as when they do so on the VTR. And when they do so they generally did/do so after warranty expired allowing them wiggle room, thus saving them a fortune in R&D costs of designing a one-off failure proof CCT specifically for the VTR when they upgraded certain bits& bobs from 2001>. Which had they done would have been tantamount to admitting there was a problem in the first place. Thankfully failure hasn't been known AFAIK to have killed anyone by throwing riders over the handlebars but it does still bring in a steady revenue of sales of valves & gaskets and Honda workshop man hours, and a side effect of a steady stream of immobile bikes ending being broken for spares.

[AMCQ46]

You can air test to see If you are on compression, but as Wicky said, you have to take air box off any way, so you are only 4 bolts away from having the rear cam cover off. So thats by far the easiest way to be sure you have it all done correctly.

There are plenty of photos in the stopper thread



The stopper goes inside the tube once you take off the plunger

[bazza696]

Just one question why would do the stopper mod, you have all the hassle of taking the bike apart and set up the timing correctly only to do it all again when the cct fails(and it will fail for certain). when they fail you will have to purchase new ccts from honda at around 65 quid for the pair and go through all the same hassel.

manuals are a once fit solution.

[AMCQ46]

Bazza, I still think the autos are the best engineering solution for the engine, and with the stopper fitted you get the best of both worlds.

And I have seen 2 sets of manuals come undone when riding, and 2 sets too tight....so if you don't have good garage skills there is still a risk with the manuals.

But in the end both are good solutions

[VTRDark]

I couldn't find a head butting one so this will do

Rock on Tommy. Now where my braces.

(:-})

[mr.john.coates]

Thanks, Guys.

Just one (final) question and then I'll be quiet and do the work...what sort of pin is the plunger pin? A roll pin or a slotted pin, perhaps? I'm very slightly concerned about removal of the pin and subsequent re-fitting as I can see nothing but friction to retain it. I'm sure it will be ok, but I had a bad experience with a roll pin coming loose many years ago and shedding a cam gear after I reused an old one and did not replace it as recommended (Oh, gear driven camshafts, why'd we not do them anymore )

Just one question why would do the stopper mod, you have all the hassle of taking the bike apart and set up the timing correctly only to do it all again when the cct fails(and it will fail for certain). when they fail you will have to purchase new ccts from honda at around 65 quid for the pair and go through all the same hassel.

manuals are a once fit solution.

I can't really answer this Bazza man, I was attracted to the argument that it was and remains the right engineering solution, it was just poorly implemented. I'm going to start off stripping the bike to do the stopper mod but if I feel the pins aren't 'safe' I can always fit manual CCTs.

Thanks again for the help and advice.

[tony.mon]

it was and remains the right engineering solution, it was just poorly implemented..

I'll ask the question again, and still haven't had a good answer, the engineering solution to what problem?
What is it that a retractable cct has that's an advantage?

The ability to retract slightly under off-load conditions means that there will be a little less tension on the chain and so engine power is slightly gained, but only off-throttle when you aren't using any anyway.
It can't affect fuel consumption, there's no problem with chain life, so although it will extend chain life, possibly, that doesn't have any benefit either....
So what is it that a stopper mod does that has a beneficial gain or effect that a properly set-up stopper mod doesn't?

BTW, a poorly done stopper mod (stopper too long, not measured properly, insufficient clearance and too-tight chain) is going to cause just as much damage as a too-tightly-set manual.
Either is an infinitely better solution than Honda's balls-up, but what's this better engineering solution that's spoken of?

[bazza696]

Thanks, Guys.

Just one (final) question and then I'll be quiet and do the work...what sort of pin is the plunger pin? A roll pin or a slotted pin, perhaps? I'm very slightly concerned about removal of the pin and subsequent re-fitting as I can see nothing but friction to retain it. I'm sure it will be ok, but I had a bad experience with a roll pin coming loose many years ago and shedding a cam gear after I reused an old one and did not replace it as recommended (Oh, gear driven camshafts, why'd we not do them anymore )

the cct's I have pulled apart that have had the stopper mod usually have a piece of alumimium rod or a cut down machine thread bolt, the choice is yours, probably an M4 but not too sure, dont take alot of notice.

its a roll pin(the one that looks like a C in cross section)and I reuse these on my conversions, if there are a little loose I tap a small panel pin in the end to open the pin up or a stanley blade, but if it is going back in the bike I would say buying a new pin, 2mm is the size.

[VTRDark]

I decided to go for full manuals for the same reasons Bazza explained above. The Honda ones will still fail one day and will need replacing. Not only is this going to leave one stranded and the possibility of having to call roadside assistance (tow truck) but when they fail they are more expensive to replace and the time taken out to replace them.

When set up right there is no more rattle with the manuals than you get with the auto's before the engine warms up to full operating temperature. The biggest worry for me was the thought of being left stranded and this would play on my mind while riding the bike. This was always a worry before I done the conversion. The thought of not if but when.

(:-})

[alternative_vtr]

I gave this a lot of thought and the work involved in changing the CCT's is such that why do the stopper mod as it doesn't stop the Honda CCT's failing it just means when they do you keep your engine but you still have to tear the bike apart to change them again and then do another stopper mod on a new pair . I think the manuals are the way to go as once the work is done it's done forever apart from adjustment which seems to be virtually none required from what people say.
I only do about 3000 miles a year on a bike so I reckon my manual ones will last years before adjustment is required and even then it's easier than changing them.

[bazza696]

I gave this a lot of thought and the work involved in changing the CCT's is such that why do the stopper mod as it doesn't stop the Honda CCT's failing it just means when they do you keep your engine but you still have to tear the bike apart to change them again and then do another stopper mod on a new pair . I think the manuals are the way to go as once the work is done it's done forever apart from adjustment which seems to be virtually none required from what people say.
I only do about 3000 miles a year on a bike so I reckon my manual ones will last years before adjustment is required and even then it's easier than changing them.

I do about the same mileage and I have had my ccts in 3 years and not needed to adjust them, only take them out once a year to polish them.

[scott02464]

Thanks, Guys.

Just one (final) question and then I'll be quiet and do the work...what sort of pin is the plunger pin? A roll pin or a slotted pin, perhaps? I'm very slightly concerned about removal of the pin and subsequent re-fitting as I can see nothing but friction to retain it. I'm sure it will be ok,

Do you mean the plunger head pin?

If so yes it's held in with friction but Is a tight fit so won't work it's own way out as its a tight fit.

If you look at the pin from the side it's shaped like a 'C' so when you tap it in it'll close up, if that makes sense?

[AMCQ46]

Mr John.Coats,
as everyone has said, plunger is held on with a roll pin and it is OK to reuse.


regarding the other battle on manuals vs Stopper.........I guess its down the the individual, as long as you dont take too long deciding!
But I would choose stopper every time, but thats just me........... the engine operates as deigned, its failure mode is the least serious, and it cost me nothing.......whats not to like?

[VTRDark]

only take them out once a year to polish them.

You tart

(:-})