Hello stormers
I know this has probably been discussed a number if times and indeed I have read all previous posts threads relating to this but just want a few things answered and any up to date uk contacts.
I have obtained a decent working remote reservoir shock from a nineties fireblade with the red spring .. Just as pictured in the various threads about this subject. It is about 30 odd mm shorter than the storm shock so intend fabricating a longer clevis bracket for three top mount. My query is that as the linkages are different the stock spring rates are also so I require a custom spring to suit the cbr shock spring length, the firestorm leverage exerted by the linkages, and my weight. Where would I get one of these made up in the uk ?
What is the standard firestorms spring rate / spec ? Rate, free length, etc
Thanks folks
George
Spring rates fireblade shock
-
jamiedaugherty
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:21 am
- Location: Fort Wayne, IN
- Contact:
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
More than likely (it varies by year) the spring rate is around 800-ish lb/in. Sorry, I don't remember off the top if my head the metric conversion - here in the States it's just imperial units. Depending on your weight you would need something considerably heavier. Most VTR shocks I setup get something on the order of a 950-1000lb/in part installed.
I hope this helps!
I hope this helps!
Jamie Daugherty
www.daughertymotorsports.com
www.daughertymotorsports.com
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
Welcome to the forum, its good to have you onboard Jamie D
Everything good is bad
Everything bad is good
Everything bad is good
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
Yes have read your posts over the last few days regarding your work on this Jamie .. Thanks for replying keep up the good work !!
I have earmarked a couple of companies to call tomorrow. I know its quote straight guard to get an uprated custom spring for the standard setup .. But if I want to use this blade shock then there is the added variable of the blade shock dimensions ..
I know from your posts on the superhawk forum that the calving will prob need adjusted to suit .. I think ill start with a spring and see how it works out as I still have standard underspung front end ..
If I weigh 14 stone 5 pounds uk or 16 stone us or 91 kg .. What spring rate do you think I should have on the blade shock in the firestorm ? .. Hmm
Do you still do shock conversions Jamie ?
Cheers lads
G
I have earmarked a couple of companies to call tomorrow. I know its quote straight guard to get an uprated custom spring for the standard setup .. But if I want to use this blade shock then there is the added variable of the blade shock dimensions ..
I know from your posts on the superhawk forum that the calving will prob need adjusted to suit .. I think ill start with a spring and see how it works out as I still have standard underspung front end ..
If I weigh 14 stone 5 pounds uk or 16 stone us or 91 kg .. What spring rate do you think I should have on the blade shock in the firestorm ? .. Hmm
Do you still do shock conversions Jamie ?
Cheers lads
G
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
My god that last post of mine reads like code for my phone predictive text is sh1t .. !! Hope you can catch the drift ... !!!
-
jamiedaugherty
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:21 am
- Location: Fort Wayne, IN
- Contact:
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
I'd go with a 1000lb/in, whch to you be a 17.9kg/mm or 175N/mm spring.
Oh sure, I'm, pretty well loaded down with shock conversions so I expect to be making them for a long time. It's a good thing I enjoy doing this stuff!
Oh sure, I'm, pretty well loaded down with shock conversions so I expect to be making them for a long time. It's a good thing I enjoy doing this stuff!
Jamie Daugherty
www.daughertymotorsports.com
www.daughertymotorsports.com
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
Jamie, this has got my brain running, as I have been playing with rear shock for last 2 yrs, and in that time I have had a basic WP emulsion shock, and now I have a Nitron shock [the reason for that change was to get a hydraulic preload adjuster built in, and some beter damping control]. but in that work I have tried a few spring rates, and spoken to Roger Dichfied of Revolution Racing for his guidence on best set up for me.
From what I had found out the stock Honda Showa spring is950lb/in [17kg/mm], and we all know this is too hard.
When I got the WP shock it was fitted with a 160N [16kg/mm] and for my 13st [83kg in riding gear], this was still too hard, so I spoke to Roger, and he advised that I should use 800 to 825 lb/in spring [14.25kg/mm]. I fitted that to the WP, and this was good for me, but as soon as I had a pillion there was too much movement and hence I needed a way to change the preload easier.
So now I have a nitron shock, and they sent that with a 160N spring, but I got them to change it to 145 based on my experience above, and again for solo work that is spot on, and now I can run up 8mm extra preload and 6 clicks more damping when I have a pillion, so that also works very well too.
So when I look at the numbers you have reccomended it has go me scratching my head, as the spring rate numbers dont line up with what I had found out from Roger.
Given that the 2 people who know a hell of a lot about VTR suspension is you and Roger, I dont know which is correct now regarding the standard spring, but I do know for me the 160N is too stiff and 140N with 8mm sag is great for solo work.
as I asid, I am now confused
From what I had found out the stock Honda Showa spring is950lb/in [17kg/mm], and we all know this is too hard.
When I got the WP shock it was fitted with a 160N [16kg/mm] and for my 13st [83kg in riding gear], this was still too hard, so I spoke to Roger, and he advised that I should use 800 to 825 lb/in spring [14.25kg/mm]. I fitted that to the WP, and this was good for me, but as soon as I had a pillion there was too much movement and hence I needed a way to change the preload easier.
So now I have a nitron shock, and they sent that with a 160N spring, but I got them to change it to 145 based on my experience above, and again for solo work that is spot on, and now I can run up 8mm extra preload and 6 clicks more damping when I have a pillion, so that also works very well too.
So when I look at the numbers you have reccomended it has go me scratching my head, as the spring rate numbers dont line up with what I had found out from Roger.
Given that the 2 people who know a hell of a lot about VTR suspension is you and Roger, I dont know which is correct now regarding the standard spring, but I do know for me the 160N is too stiff and 140N with 8mm sag is great for solo work.
as I asid, I am now confused
AMcQ
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
Asid?AMCQ46 wrote:
as I asid, I am now confused
That would explain a lot, and explain the spelling.
Last edited by tony.mon on Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's not falling off, it's an upgrade opportunity.
Spring rates fireblade shock
You are now, not the only one...AMCQ46 wrote:
as I asid, I am now confused
No bike (yet).
-
jamiedaugherty
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:21 am
- Location: Fort Wayne, IN
- Contact:
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
To put it plainly, the stock spring is not too stiff. In fact, it's perfectly fine for many riders. What you are probably mistaking is that the damping of th stock shock is terribly harsh, this could be giving many people the impression it's oversprung. There is no way I would go with antyhing in the 800-900lb/in range - that's way too light.
What didn't you like about the 160N/mm spring? I'll bet if yuo get the valving dialed in properly it would be ok. I'm talking about internal valving and not external adjustments. Most aftermarket shocks are not valved very well out of the box and can be improved quite a bit with internal changes.
What didn't you like about the 160N/mm spring? I'll bet if yuo get the valving dialed in properly it would be ok. I'm talking about internal valving and not external adjustments. Most aftermarket shocks are not valved very well out of the box and can be improved quite a bit with internal changes.
Jamie Daugherty
www.daughertymotorsports.com
www.daughertymotorsports.com
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
Jamie,
From memory the 160 spring onthe WP shock was too harsh over normal road bumps, with very little travel, and on bigger faster bumps had too much energy in rebound that I couldn't remove with the damping. When I had the spring changed I also had the valving modified by revs racing and it was much better both in compliance and control.
you are right, this could be that the damping was not working well, but the spring change gave the bike a compliance that makes it much more composed on real roads.
The WP was quite basic unit and 2nd hand, but the Nitron is new and has better range of damping adjustment, but again the compliance and the way the bike works over bumpy sweeping country roads with the 145 spring is very composed. Both back and front (with Roger sprung & valved forks) move well together and it tracks the ground and gets the power down with good control....
Even 2 up with 7mm extra preload it just Floats over the ripples and let's you get on with steering braking and power.
As said, this was what roger d told me to try, and it works for me so i didnt doubt his recommendation( and bear in mind I am not very heavy). I have let a few of the guys on here try my bike, and they all rate the way the back end tracks the road and works the bumps, so I don't think it's just me trying to convince myself that it's a good investment.
Interesting to see what other people are using as their spring rates in the uk and USA?
From memory the 160 spring onthe WP shock was too harsh over normal road bumps, with very little travel, and on bigger faster bumps had too much energy in rebound that I couldn't remove with the damping. When I had the spring changed I also had the valving modified by revs racing and it was much better both in compliance and control.
you are right, this could be that the damping was not working well, but the spring change gave the bike a compliance that makes it much more composed on real roads.
The WP was quite basic unit and 2nd hand, but the Nitron is new and has better range of damping adjustment, but again the compliance and the way the bike works over bumpy sweeping country roads with the 145 spring is very composed. Both back and front (with Roger sprung & valved forks) move well together and it tracks the ground and gets the power down with good control....
Even 2 up with 7mm extra preload it just Floats over the ripples and let's you get on with steering braking and power.
As said, this was what roger d told me to try, and it works for me so i didnt doubt his recommendation( and bear in mind I am not very heavy). I have let a few of the guys on here try my bike, and they all rate the way the back end tracks the road and works the bumps, so I don't think it's just me trying to convince myself that it's a good investment.
Interesting to see what other people are using as their spring rates in the uk and USA?
AMcQ
-
jamiedaugherty
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:21 am
- Location: Fort Wayne, IN
- Contact:
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
That was probably soft rebound valving, at least from what I can tell from your description. I'll bet if you bump it up you'd find some major gains. I'm 215lb and run a 1000lb/in on my bike - I could really use a step (or two!) up from that. Problem is that I spend all of my time working on parts for other people with no time for my own bike. Just ask my boys, they need me to setup their motocross bikes! Yeah, don't tell their mother ok?
Jamie Daugherty
www.daughertymotorsports.com
www.daughertymotorsports.com
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
Interesting reading guys ..
The shock I have got hold of is from a 90s cbr fireblade with a separate reservoir and adjuster for compression I would imagine. Ive cleaned up both the original firestorm and cbr shock and played about with the settings with the springs removed. On both the adjuster and the lower end of both I think for the rebound damping does alter how quickly the shock returns to full extension with the hardest setting making pulling the piston out of the cylinder very stiff and the softest setting making the return quite quick .. Ive noted the firestorm shock is a lot stiffer across the range of adjustment than the cbr shock .. Springs removed of course. The compression damping adjuster doesnt seem to make any difference to the movement of the cbr piston, and I do note a kind of bubbling noise coming from it as you compress and extend the shock .. Just wondering if its needing recharged filled etc .. ?
Ive had a thought that if so .. Or event if not I could detach the lower ends of both shocks and swap them .. Thereby making the cbr shock exactly the same fully extended length as the original firestorm shock .. All other dimensions are very close or same. This would negate the need for a spacer or extention on the lower shock eye .. ? As oil travels through the piston shaft down to the adjuster I would imagine the shock would then need recharging ? Which if it needs it anyway would be ok .. ?
So swap shock bottoms, custom spring to suit and then revalving would result in a perfect shock for retrofit .. ?
Thoughts .. ??!!
Geordie
The shock I have got hold of is from a 90s cbr fireblade with a separate reservoir and adjuster for compression I would imagine. Ive cleaned up both the original firestorm and cbr shock and played about with the settings with the springs removed. On both the adjuster and the lower end of both I think for the rebound damping does alter how quickly the shock returns to full extension with the hardest setting making pulling the piston out of the cylinder very stiff and the softest setting making the return quite quick .. Ive noted the firestorm shock is a lot stiffer across the range of adjustment than the cbr shock .. Springs removed of course. The compression damping adjuster doesnt seem to make any difference to the movement of the cbr piston, and I do note a kind of bubbling noise coming from it as you compress and extend the shock .. Just wondering if its needing recharged filled etc .. ?
Ive had a thought that if so .. Or event if not I could detach the lower ends of both shocks and swap them .. Thereby making the cbr shock exactly the same fully extended length as the original firestorm shock .. All other dimensions are very close or same. This would negate the need for a spacer or extention on the lower shock eye .. ? As oil travels through the piston shaft down to the adjuster I would imagine the shock would then need recharging ? Which if it needs it anyway would be ok .. ?
So swap shock bottoms, custom spring to suit and then revalving would result in a perfect shock for retrofit .. ?
Thoughts .. ??!!
Geordie
-
jamiedaugherty
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:21 am
- Location: Fort Wayne, IN
- Contact:
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
Yes, it certainly sounds like the CBR shock needs rebuilt. That would invalidate your damping "tests" by the way.
You can swap the lower eye between the two shocks, though I'm not sure you will get the correct length. Even just a couple of mm too short would negate any benefits of the change. In fact, I think you find that left stock the CBR900 shock isn't much better than your VTR's.
You can swap the lower eyes without losing any fluid. There is a seal down at that end. You will need to release the nitrogen pressure on both though. There also is permanent thread locker on there in addition to the locknut. It almost always takes a good amount of heat to get them apart. It's actually not as easy as it might look.
Good luck!
You can swap the lower eye between the two shocks, though I'm not sure you will get the correct length. Even just a couple of mm too short would negate any benefits of the change. In fact, I think you find that left stock the CBR900 shock isn't much better than your VTR's.
You can swap the lower eyes without losing any fluid. There is a seal down at that end. You will need to release the nitrogen pressure on both though. There also is permanent thread locker on there in addition to the locknut. It almost always takes a good amount of heat to get them apart. It's actually not as easy as it might look.
Good luck!
Jamie Daugherty
www.daughertymotorsports.com
www.daughertymotorsports.com
Re: Spring rates fireblade shock
.. hmm
I can honestly say that looking and measuring both, swapping the lower part would bring the cbr shock to exactly the same fully extended height if you like .. Ive got kit for heating up nuts and bolts so if needed shouldnt be an issue ..
yes it is a bit of an experiment, as I said earlier the original firestorm shock had a broken preload adjuster which ive now repaired and beefed up, so could always put it back in ..
The cbr has compression damping which the firestorm doesn't have so that would be the main advantage i guess.. if all else fits.
I guess a cross sectional drawing of the shock internals may help me understand how it works better .. but it sounds like you are saying that the nitrogen will escape if I take off the lower eyes ? I was of the understanding that there was oil flowing through the piston rod to the lower adjuster .. ? Does the nitrogen hold this oil under pressure .. ? if so i would imagine as i slacken off the nut at some point there could be a fairly quick explosion of oil everywhere .. which i get it sent away for recharging etc not going to matter unless its dangerous of course .. ! Im going to be on the phone tomorrow to folks that rebuild these to see what they can do for me before i go taking things apart ..
Ill keep the thread informed.
Thanks for your input Jamie, id be more inclined to deal with you just the whole import export shite Ive come a cropper with before ..
Cheers
George
I can honestly say that looking and measuring both, swapping the lower part would bring the cbr shock to exactly the same fully extended height if you like .. Ive got kit for heating up nuts and bolts so if needed shouldnt be an issue ..
yes it is a bit of an experiment, as I said earlier the original firestorm shock had a broken preload adjuster which ive now repaired and beefed up, so could always put it back in ..
The cbr has compression damping which the firestorm doesn't have so that would be the main advantage i guess.. if all else fits.
I guess a cross sectional drawing of the shock internals may help me understand how it works better .. but it sounds like you are saying that the nitrogen will escape if I take off the lower eyes ? I was of the understanding that there was oil flowing through the piston rod to the lower adjuster .. ? Does the nitrogen hold this oil under pressure .. ? if so i would imagine as i slacken off the nut at some point there could be a fairly quick explosion of oil everywhere .. which i get it sent away for recharging etc not going to matter unless its dangerous of course .. ! Im going to be on the phone tomorrow to folks that rebuild these to see what they can do for me before i go taking things apart ..
Ill keep the thread informed.
Thanks for your input Jamie, id be more inclined to deal with you just the whole import export shite Ive come a cropper with before ..
Cheers
George