Is it CCT or...

[Trainraider]

I have to admit that now I was lucky of being unlucky.

When I returned from the long trip around the Europe I left the bike outside for couple of days. I didn't have any place to put the bike since the garage was full of everything possible. So couple of days after I started the engine to move the bike 10 meters. Engine sounded bad, but I didn't pay much attention to it since I needed to move the bike only 10 meters.

Now yesterday when I tried to start the Storm again, it didn't start. Starter was running easily, for me it sounded that it runs too easily, but nothing. Expect occasional spat from the exhaust (not even a bang).

So after riding a trip around eastern Europe for 5700+ kilometres the Storm breaks down at my home lawn. I would say that the bike gave everything what it got to bring it's owner back home! That's what I call a fighters attitude. Nicely done!

When trying to push to start the bike, there seems to be compression enough (in other words, no hope to start it this way), but when starting the starter feels to run bit too smoothly. So with my reasoning I was thinking that this must be now the notorious CCT problem. Maybe the chain has jumped and the valves are now messed up? It actually feels more like that the bike is taking air from the exhaust instead of pushing something there because no banging (and I doubt that both of the spark plugs would have failed at the same time).

Any ideas?

[popkat]

Crappy E10 european fuel !, drain your carbs and put some fresh stuff in and see if it fires.. It's easy to try before delving any deeper.

[VTRDark]

It don't sound like a cct problem to me. I think you would know if it was. So the starter is turning as normal but the bike is not firing. Check to see if you have a spark at the plugs. Make sure fuel is getting through to the carbs.

(:-})

[Rob]

Turning over too easily would surely be lack of compression.

Hopefully not but can't think of any other explanation.

[VTRDark]

When trying to push to start the bike, there seems to be compression enough (in other words, no hope to start it this way),

Sounds like he's tried bump starting it Rob

But if it's spinning over too easily ie lack of compression it could be a starter issue. Stater pinion gear,what that one called behind the flywheel. Anyway a worn gear somewhere.

I think it's a case of starting with the basics first, rule any issues out there.

Traniraider when you say the Engine sounded bad, can you explain the symptoms. Bad in what way?

(:-})

[Trainraider]

Yes - bump starting
No habla Ingles... Sorry about my bad English.

So plenty of compression when bump starting. Also starter is turning the engine. I have had starter faults with other bikes and that sounds completely different. However I have to admit that couple of times during the trip also the starter sound like it would have turned to a wrong direction.... (which again was a funny problem with NSR125. Eventually the bike actually started running backwards...)

It is really difficult to say how the engine sounded bad as mentioned. Since I really drove only 10 meters the engine was running only maybe 30 seconds. It sounded noisier than normally. More *clunks* on every stroke... maybe. Anyway I got scared about the sound (because it didn't sound healthy) but I didn't pay much attention to it at the time because I didn't have helmet on, so I was thinking it was noisy because of that...

I will check the spark plugs this week... And I will also remove the starter to see if the wheels look worn...

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions this far.

[Trainraider]

Even that the spark plugs were old as the Mayan calendar there was really good spark. So that problem is ruled out. It also rules out possible electrical fault...

Oh well. I rented a trailer and transported my bike to wait next week at the front of the local workshop... My credit card is crying blood already.

But at least the problem will be fixed. I am rather sure about the CCT being the source of all evil. The problem is how to convince the workshop to get me somehow manual CCTs...

CAD drawings of the manual CCT's would be really appreciated. Or detailed drawings with measures. Even that the conversion itself is not difficult, somehow I just don't like the idea of customizing the originals. Maybe it is the need of locktite...

[Wicky]

Contact Bazza (bazza696) for converted CCts or Mark Krieger (klx678) for new uns

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/memberlis ... ile&u=8046

http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/memberlis ... le&u=10585

If it is a CCT then your bike will have sounded like a big bag of nails in a tumble dryer , and you shouldn't try and start it again as this couldn't make a bad situation even worse.

[VTRDark]

Wicky you do realise your collection of links are not going to work now since the domain name change. You may have to do a batch change to http://www.vtr1000.org/

(:-})

[Trainraider]

Oh agony, pain and misery...

My poor Storm is sooo crippled.

I just got a call from the workshop that the rear cylinder doesn't have pressure, but the cam chain seems to be ok. Explains why the starter runs "too smoothly".

The bad thing is that this is getting expensive.

So the next probable faults are:
- Piston rings
- Valves f-ed up
- Pistons itself (sounds unlikely, but you never know)

Worst case scenario: all above and some extra...

[VTRDark]

It may be cheaper for you to buy a used engine from ebay or a scrapyard, then have the engines changed over.

(:-})

[tony.mon]

Wait a minute before you go changing the engine...

They say the "chain's ok". It should be, the chain itself doesn't fail.
There are two chains, one for each cylinder.
And even when the cct's spring has failed, and the chain has moved round on the sprocket teeth, the chain's still intact, and looks ok, and is almost always good to re-use.

I want to know the answers to these specific questions:
1. Have they removed or inspected both CCT's to see if they both still have internal spring tension? (you do this by poking a small flat blade screwdriver down the end of each one, taking the cap bolt off first, and feeling for spring tension.
It should be the same on each).
2. How have they checked for low compression? With a gauge?
3. On which cylinder is there no compression?
(if a gauge has been used, and it shows no compression on one cylinder, then as you say it will be:
(a) a hole in the piston, in which case the engine needs stripping or replacing
(b) rings broken, in which case there will be some compression, but lower than normal, and smoke burning out of the exhaust, with dropping oil level if you continue riding it, or
(c) valves bent, probably due to a CCT failure.

It's not unusual to find that a dealer doesn't know about the CCT failures likely in these engines.
When a CCT fails, it's the spring inside that goes, then the engine's cam timing chain for one cylinder moves over the sprocket teeth at the camshafts, and the valves come into contact with the piston. The valves bend, won't re-seat properly, and you lose all the compression on that cylinder.
To properly inspect it, you have to take off the tank and airbox, carbs and plastic heat shield, then lower the oil cooler onto the front mudguard.
Then you can remove both cam covers and inspect the valve timing marks on the cam sprockets, relative to the top dead centre positions of the crank.
Look at Sirch's excellent guide in the Workshop Stickies.

[Trainraider]

Thanks Tony.mon,

Indeed. There is still a small possibility that one of the CTT's is broken, but it seems that they are ok.

The engine is now taken completely apart and actually it really seems that only real problem was loose/worn piston ring (oil ring I assume).

It seems that it leaked and burned oil and since we drove very easily (no serious rewwing) for a long time, the blackness from the deep soul from the storm started to pack around the piston and valves eventually causing piston rings and valves to stuck so there was no compression anymore. (pressure was measured with gauge, 0 at front, 0,5 bar at back)

I assume that the engine cooled down much more than during the trip as the weather was practically 20C cooler so the last bit was when I started the cool engine and all the muck in the cylinders made it's way to the piston rings.

But I have to add that I am bit pissed for the workshop because they really tear the bike apart. Most of the work they did was completely pointless. And here is the result:





The good thing is that everything else seems to be ok, expect the piston rings.

And since the engine was stripped, I need to renew all seals:

In any case, the season is over from me and now I will concentrate to solve a small(ish) puzzle in my living room. (yes, I know, the correct place is bedroom, but that is on the second floor...).

[tony.mon]

Ok, at least they found something to fix.

Let us know if you have any problems putting it all back together.

If it's just rings, you'd best measure the bore before putting it back together.