Red storm dyno - hp on engine

[Varastorm]

Torich to quick falls in line with my work on FIL. Problem I see is the lack of control on the speed the needles lift. FIL there is not vacuum to pull fuel up from the needle at consistent part throttle. So blocking the air bleed to the main circuit will help. For this situation I would consider blocking both holes in the slide and drill one out to 50% of one original hole. Or pre load the slide spring.

NZSpokes, what was your afr graph showing you before you attempted the FIL mod?

[NZSpokes]

Torich to quick falls in line with my work on FIL. Problem I see is the lack of control on the speed the needles lift. FIL there is not vacuum to pull fuel up from the needle at consistent part throttle. So blocking the air bleed to the main circuit will help. For this situation I would consider blocking both holes in the slide and drill one out to 50% of one original hole. Or pre load the slide spring.

NZSpokes, what was your afr graph showing you before you attempted the FIL mod?

As I mentioned in the FIL thread. Dyno runs here are between $600 and $1000. So in answer I have no idea.

[CruxGNZ]

Concerning the FIL mod, we might have a dyno graph from a stock VTR on July 2nd. I haven't got the go ahead to setup some carbs for him yet, so not sure if this will happen for sure or not. But, the plan is for him to drive to my garage, install the FIL mod lid and the set of carbs that will be setup identical to my bike (which ran AWESOME with the FIL mod w/stock engine). Then take it to the dyno, which will be at Cycle Gear parking lot for a "Bike Night", which is less than a mile from my house. I hope this happens

[Stephan]

I changed the setup to oem two slide holes and honda needles, rear shimmed 0,5 mm, nothing else. Bikes seems better, but 4-5 rpm is still a bit dull, and maybe top end is affected. Will do another dyno run and see. But this setup is ok, I can leave it as it is :-)

Varastorm: your suggested changes didn´t make sense to me. Pilot jet area is going well, top end was flawless, there was no reason to play with pilot and main jet sizes.

[Varastorm]

Varastorm: your suggested changes didn´t make sense to me. Pilot jet area is going well, top end was flawless, there was no reason to play with pilot and main jet sizes.

After the "VTR cams" dyno run, I had a good chat with Paul Bland the owner/operator of the dyno. He reckoned that there was a little more power to be had if I increased the mains & leaned out the midrange.

Tbh, I was quite happy with the power increase the cam swap had given, but I gave the jetting one last go & did as he recommended.

He was right. The improvement to the 5000rpm > performance is significant. Unbelievable to be honest, that is the reason I am trying to "fix" the 3000rpm lean problem dropping the needle has given me.

I must of had the carbs off at least 30 times in the past couple of weeks I don't chase things like this for insignificant gains, these gains are huge

I am in the process of filing the needles to try & sort it out, have a look at this site Stephan. What do you think ?

http://www.bobs-services.de/pdf/2003_12_nadel_de.pdf

[Stephan]

Varastorm: as I don´t speak german, I don´t understand posted link completely :-)

Personally I think that changing needle profile will affect much more than just 3000 rpm, and dynojet needles are good enough. 3000 rpm problem could be solved just by pilot screw settings, but do small changes. Last but not least, I can be wrong :-)

[Varastorm]

I don´t speak german, I don´t understand posted link completely :-)

I used Google translate, just highlight the section of text & copy'n paste it into the Google translate box

Personally I think that changing needle profile will affect much more than just 3000 rpm

I am only changing the profile where the lean issue is

3000 rpm problem could be solved just by pilot screw settings, but do small changes

That's what I thought, but the pilot circuit runs out of puff just beneath the 3000rpm. I went way over the pilot's "perfect" jetting just to see if I could richen the 3000rpm issue but it didn't work.

I've come to the conclusion that it's the needle that needs to be thinner & allow more fuel in that area

See the flats that I've filed below

[Stephan]

I hope you will post the result :-)

[Varastorm]

I hope you will post the result :-)

Of course I will Stephan, even if it's no good

[8541Hawk]

I too am trying to get to the bottom of this 5000rpm rich problem every one has.

Are to talking the stock bike or ones that have been modified?

Also it is a bit odd that if "every" bike has this issue, why doesn't mine?

[Varastorm]

talking the stock bike or ones that have been modified?

Any VTR, I have not seen a dyno graph that reads 13/1 afr at 5000-6000 rpm.

Also it is a bit odd that if "every" bike has this issue, why doesn't mine?

I, like yourself never thought I had it either. Until the dyno proved it

Btw, if you have conquered this jetting riddle, prove it with a dyno sheet & tell us your setup

I am starting to get fed up with stripping carbs all the time. I'm so Familure with them, I did it in the dark the other night

[8541Hawk]

One of the reasons I have started to stay away from these threads is that I feel like I am just showing up being negative but the whole "the needles are all wrong" thing going around now just kind of bothers me as I feel it is wrong info.

While I am just some guy on the net, lets use someone that a lot of you guys respect as a good VTR tuner, Mr. Ditchfield.

Yes his set up is a bit different than mine but the part we are looking at are the needles.
He uses unmodified DJ needles in his set up.

So if we take the statement "the needle profile is all wrong" as the truth then I have to make some assumptions about Mr. Ditchfield as a tuner.

Though I'll let you pick which one sounds best......

Either Roger is such a poor tuner that he couldn't see a needle issue when he did his dyno runs and neither could FactoryPro or DynoJet or even HRC as they all run very close to the same profile.
Add in Erion Racing and Moriwaki and you are talking a lot of dyno runs by folks with almost unlimited budgets, yet none of them saw the needle issue............

Another option is Roger (and all the other folks already mentioned) is just a lazy tuner and doesn't care if the bikes he tunes run correctly...... just get them out and oh well.

I don't know about you but neither sound right to me....... Would you happen to have any other option I missed as to why, in all these years, no one has complained about the needle profile?

Now it is easy to do what I call, tune yourself into a corner, with this bike.
Meaning that when you start modifying things you can get to the point where things stop working together.

At this point you might need custom parts, not because the stock or aftermarket bits are all wrong, they are just wrong for you and your specific mods.

Which gives you 3 options IMHO
Make your own bits as you have a one off set up that will only work for you specific bike.

Change things so that the systems actually work together and the available parts will give proper results

Run FCRs and deal with the new host of problems they bring

Then there is always a F.I. option.

I'll finish up with IMHO you really don't want to start carving your own parts.

Back to my as I actually do hope you guys find something new.

[8541Hawk]

if you have conquered this jetting riddle, prove it with a dyno sheet & tell us your setup

This is why there is not a lot of help from guys who have done this stuff for awhile.......

You do realize I have made a tidy sum tuning bikes..... even supported my family doing it for a while.

I can understand you not liking the things I have to say on the tuning subject but I am allowed my point of view.

Now from my side I look at what you said...... sure you gave the ol' thumbs up though then you turn around and all but call me a liar with your prove it with a dyno chart.
Well it really is none of your business but as a cancer patient, on a fixed income, I don't have the cash to go get a dyno chart for you. Neither can I spare the rear tire, for the same reason.
Also if I did locate my old charts, they are paper and no use here...... so we'll just stick with I make stuff up for fun.

Then after that, you ask me to give you the answer to your questions for free.

Can you see why it can be hard to shake the attitude of "why bother"?

[Varastorm]

You need to calm down sir, you are telling me that your bike runs with no issues & all I am asking if for a afr graph

[Stephan]

stay cool guys, it is not worth it. As long as somebody is going to file my needles, I am fine with that ... :-)