Riding help...leaning

[AlmostThere]

Hey all,

Some of you may know already that I'm new to riding. Thankfully I've had a fair amount of seat time (although not as much as I'd like, at best one day a week) over the past few months and my confidence is building as I get used to riding and the bike.

I've been learning to lean more in the corners but I could do with some help/advice/tips before I end up in the bushes.


Front (Dunlop Sportsmart, fairly new (not by me), running 32psi)


Rear (Michelin Pilot Street Radial, squared off (not by me), running 36 psi)

1) Is it normal to have such a difference between front and rear 'chicken strips'. I can see the angle of the tyre falls off sharply on the front (relative to rear) which (I'm presuming) accounts for some (most?) of the difference.

2) How do you know when you have reached edge of tyre and should stop pushing for more lean? I can feel things get a little 'lumpy' at the higher lean but what happens past that?

3) Does the Firestorm have a tendency to push the nose in corners? Sometimes where there is a change in surface/ rough patch I can feel the front end push wide (the rear doesn't seem to move much: does that mean I need to move my body back a bit and take weight off the front?). Not had that happen when the surface is uniform/smooth.

4) How much grip is actually available? I was watching some videos online and the answer to that by someone was 'more than you think'...hmm Is there much feedback once you get near the tyre's limit? Finding somewhere to practice doing low speed/high lean figure of 8's is not easy. There is a riding school close that allows people to use their cones/markings when they're closed but the place has a surprising amount of small/fine stones littering the yard!)

5) Where should I be on the seat? I find sitting back a bit (i.e. away from the tank) is not easy to maintain for long, I always tend to slip/move towards the tank after a few corners. Am I perhaps not holding the tank with my knees/thighs enough?

6) Weight on pegs? E.g. should I be putting weight on the left peg on a left hand turn (and vice-versa), remain neutral, or put it on the outside (right) peg? I had a play around with that today but I find it hard to tease any effect out from everything else that is going on.

7) On a standard Firestorm what touches the ground first, the pegs? I tried to lean the bike over and have a look but it's not at all easy on your own, there's a fair weight to it (must have eaten too many Audi's and BMW's).

There are so few corners that are suitable to practice on I find myself doubling back the same route a few times. That's okay to a point but I feel I'm just learning to lean more on that specific corner, not in general. Any help/advice/tips on anything above would be greatly appreciated

[MacV2]

Change the tyres for a start if the rear is squared off its not gonna track well over rippels, joins, white lines ect.

I'm not gonna recomend a tyre, thats down to personal prefrence & your bank balance...Some will say A brand others will say B brand all the way to Z brand...

Remember the Storm is not an out & out sports bike so pick a tyre & try it. Get a matched set...

Then think about the susspension that will have a greater effect on handling.

Your 20 year old bike may have 20 year old fork oil & springs in it...Dry grease in the head bearings & shock linkage...& then theres the std rear shock.

Generaly speaking the Storms forks are soft & the rear shock is hard...

Prepare to get the wallet out !

Oh one question you asked... Pepole have reported that on track, the headers can touch down on rights & the pegs on the left...

Just my opinion but if your aiming for that on the road then your a fek wit...

[popkat]

Mismatched tyres are not ideal, especially when one is new the other squared off.. get a pair on there, some makes and types curl more than others even if they say they are the same size.. if you want road sport then Bridgestone S21 sport/touring then Michelin pilot road 4, in between Mich road 5.. why these tyres ? Well while not my preference the B/stone-Michelins mentioned tend to have a flatter profile so if you want rid of your chicken strips there’s more chance with them.
You asked about grip. When you reach the edge of the tyre you still have full contact patch, it’s just the edge that’s got to the edge, keep leaning and to be fair your next step is to do a track day.
Your pressures are a bit low for the road, I would suggest 35fr/38rear.
Stick to original sizes 120/70/17 + 180/55/17


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[MK_WF]

That reads like someone is overthinking something.

First and most importantly:
Lean angles are a matter of training. They do not come automatically and they do get less if you pause for long (like winter)
Finding out the limit on public roads is kind of a bad idea. Yes, it's absolutely possible but it's incredibly dangerous especially for people with low riding experience.

My advice: Check out the race tracks in your neighborhood and book a track day with an instructor. Sometimes there's even companies offering lean angle trainings on specially prepared bikes.
(like these guys in Germany https://www.race-and-fun.com/produkt/intensiv/)
That'd be ideal for you (how about a holiday in Germany?)

Concerning most tires I had mounted on the VTR the front always had a much larger chicken strip.

As background to rate what's been advised:
I'm riding motorcycles since 1983 with at least 300000km riding experience.
I'm on race tracks on a regular base and can go around my home track within around 10% above lap record.

[AlmostThere]

Thanks for the responses guys

I guess from what I opened with I gave the impression of someone charging around blind bends, dragging the pegs at way above the speed limit on busy roads. That is not the case.

1) I NEED my driving license for work so I'm not offering that up for the chopping block. I have had a clean license for twenty plus years, I intend to keep it that way.

2) I typically ride with others who are on proper tourers so none of us are flying around. On my last ride, albeit solo, I went 78.9 miles on one of my favourite routes. Good offering of open, excellent visability, traffic free corners with relatively safe run off and modest speeds to practice leaning over. I fuelled up before I left and fuelled up on return at the same garage and I put in a total of 7.36L of V-Power, that's not far off 50mpg so I'm not being silly (subjective ).

3) I'm up at 3:30am every day for work; a long lie for me is 5:00am. I live in Scotland and have access to plenty of rural/open country/moorland roads and at that time on a Sunday I'm the only soul on the road for miles. I've done my IAM advanced driving (on cars) and a lot of the elements you learn/are reinforced can be used on a bike to repeat the mantra of 'smooth, safe and efficient'. I drive north of 60,000 miles a year (work only) and have done for the past decade or so with not so much as an accident or bump (yes I know it's not a bike, P.S. good job jinxing yourself )

4) I'm looking for the limit so I can stay within it. I want to know how hard I can push so I can ride in the 'smooth, safe and efficient' manner I've applied to anything I drive (and now ride). Knowing where the limit lies helps when, and if, things go pear shaped, prepping you to respond instinctively and could very well get you out of trouble rather than be on the receiving end of it. I have zero desire to cause a nuisance to other road users, no want for bragging rights 'down the pub' and coudn't give a jot how quick/fast I was on any particular section of road.

5) I came second in the badminton doubles in primary school so that should show my bike riding skills to anyone and everyone.

Again, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

MacV2 I've looked into fork/shock upgrades and whilst I'm in no doubt they would make a noticable improvement I have to remember this bike is somewhat of a sacrifice . I WILL drop it/crash it at some point as I practice what I want to learn so I'm loathe to sink money into something that may never see another owner or me the benefit for long.

Popkat thanks for the tyre suggestions. I will need a new rear fairly soon so I will look at getting a matching set of Michelins (I like the current Michelin rear far more than I like the Dunlop front, so more than happy to stay with the brand). I will change my pressures to what you suggest and give that a go. I've looked at trackdays but with only one local circuit (Knockhill) it's pretty busy and it booked up well in advance. I'm up there pretty much every time an event is on (got a season pass) and TBH, from what I've seen first hand and from stories from others dropping or crashing their bike here, it's not a pretty site. Bikes are quite often a complete mess and with the higher speeds on trackdays I really don't want to be stuck in hospital getting skin grafts (for reference, the corners I've been practicing on are pretty low speed 30-40 mph, with open grassy moorland as a runoff).

MK_WF that look likes a lot of fun! There should be a ferry route opening up from Rosyth (in Scotland) to Zeebrugge (Belgium) next year so that would be a nice way to reach Europe and then ride across to Germany (although I would have to train my derriere some more as I manage only 250-280 miles before it needs a good night's rest). I do intent to do my advanced riding at some point before the decent riding weather disappears this year, but booking is always too busy/or I can't get time off work. I will no doubt end up on track at some point but right now I want to level up my confidence/skills a good bit more before I try. Crashing at my local track (anywhere outside of the harpin) costs lots of £££.

Thanks again guys

[tony.mon]

Just a suggestion, but why not buy some cheap tyres?
It's much easier to find the limits with those.

[AMCQ46]

given that you have done your IAM for the car, you should consider doing a similar course for the bike. that will help you fine tune the bike specific skills for the road and an experienced rider will be able to comment on where your technique needs improvement.

if you don't have an IAM near by, then the police do a BikeSafe 1 day course

[Steve97]

It reads like a lack of confidence, been there, do the bike safe course, get some new matched tyres on it, and just ride it, every chance you get rain, shine, what ever comes your way, get out there, take it easy and build the experience, with it comes the confidence, forget knee down, chicken strips, wheelies, stoppies, in the words of a long lost mate " just ride it"

[gilson]

Nothing better than brand new tyres. Most of your troubles will dissappear.

[MK_WF]

When I was young and too poor for a race track, we used Autobahn crossings for training right hand knee sliding.
Note: That mentioned crossing hat pretty fresh tarmac and meanwhile one or two ears have lost a bit of grip.
Don't know, if you have those butterfly layouts in Scotland.

Roundabouts would principally serve, too, but those tend to have slippery tarmac due to cars loosing all kind of liquids.

The VTR has pins in the footrests. If everything is NORMAL the bike CAN be leaned over until they scratch.
(with slicks on track I scraped off around 2cm of the footrest)
I never had that occur on public road.
And if the tarmac & tires are not as good, that might already be too much.

What you could do is to exchange the stock around an inch long screws with longer ones.
Starting with maybe some 8 or 10 cm "should" be somewhat save.
If you get them down, shorten and re-try.
Repeat until you crash and then pick the length before.

[StuartWags]

I came back to bikes about 10 years ago after a 20 year or so break.  Prior to my return the last bike I rode was a GS550, I had never ridden anything sportier than that.  Consequently, I sat upright with my heels on the pegs.  Trying heroics on the road was (and is still) not for me.  However, I wanted to explore the cornering faster. 

I would recommend the track day route.
The first few I did were on standard Storms with whatever tyres they had on them at the time. They were still more capable than me (this depends on your own starting level though).  The first thing i noticed was my boots wore out, the first thing i had to learn was putting my toes on the pegs.  Took about a year of road riding for it to come natural.  And you will have to drop tyre pressure for the track. 
A few track days in and I was still riding on budget end road tyres.  And still sitting solid in the seat.  I could get the hero blobs down and shortly after I got the back end stepping out as I ran out of tyre.  Two take aways.  I needed to buy better tyres and needed to start moving around on the bike.
Better Suspension and Brakes came along about the same time but that's when the budget started to pick up.  Rear sets, steering damper etc..etc. And ended up with a dedicated track bike with the tyre warmers, sticky tyres, etc.
I might not work for everyone but it was my way of learning to use the envelope of the bike without busting the budget first and without doing something stupid on the road.
Road day only track days are OK as well.  The bike has to be road legal and these are aimed at people who are new to the track.  However, you don't get to learn much about the circuit because everyone is on the same donkey ride.  Saying that, some of those donkeys, still go very fast on the straight even if they they are slow in the corners
Novice groups are a good place to start too, you won't be the slowest.  But there will be people with track day bikes with tyre warmers etc.  There is more chance of finding some who know there way around the circuit

[jchesshyre]

By far the most important and powerful piece of advice for cornering is to always look where you want to go, round the bend. It's much easier said than done and more so (and also more necessary) on a bike than in a car. Learning to do this made the biggest difference of all the tips and advice I read when learning to corner vaguely properly.

[alanfjones1411]

By far the most important and powerful piece of advice for cornering is to always look where you want to go, round the bend. It's much easier said than done and more so (and also more necessary) on a bike than in a car. Learning to do this made the biggest difference of all the tips and advice I read when learning to corner vaguely properly.

And counter steering.

[AlmostThere]

Thanks for all of your feedback, much appreciated

I've took the advice offered and will be putting a new set of tyres on it soon. I've been looking last week trying to decide on which tyre to choose. I do like Michelins in general (used then on cars and mountain bikes before) and the Michelin rear that in on just now is quite a nice tyre (grips well, quick to warm up, no nasty snaps or surprises) so happy to stay with the brand. I was looking at the Michelin Road 5 as popkat mentioned but wasn't sure how much wet weather riding I would be doing (I rarely go out in the rain for anything other than work); I found the answer out today.

A few of us were due to go out today on a 280(ish) mile loop but this was arranged at the beginning of the week when it was sunny. Anyway, long story short, most pulled out as it was due to rain (with some heavy showers forecast (yes, we found them)) so it was only myself and one other (he rides a BMW 1600 something; reverse gear, sat nav, cruise control type of machine). It was miserable! Won't bore you all with the details but on the tyre side of things I did find myself growing in confidence throughout the day on the soaking wet roads. Tentative at first, I was tiptoeing around corners until I found myself trusting the grip (although I can't feel how much there is. Not sure if that's a me, suspension or tyre issue) and was able to (gently) push a little. That said (and I know I'm limiting my experience/learning potential) I will NOT be choosing to ride in the rain...again...ever.

Anyway, I was looking more at Michelin Power 5, or Bridgestone S22. Quite possibly the wrong type of tyre for the nature of the bike (as MacV2 says, not out and out sports bike) but I'm not going near the rain (this is beginning to sound like a phobia) and they will be able to handle a trackday or two (if I ever get my finger out and arrange something). However, if they're too grippy they could mask errors on my part that then become bad habits...hmm. I did think about tony.mon's reply (post 6) and I used to do that with cars in the past (had a couple of MX5's on snow tyres to learn chassis balance) but I'd prefer to have something grippy under me to deal with anything unwanted should I encounter it.

To popkat, not tried those pressures you suggested but will do on the next ride. Just curious, what does a wider section tyre give you, more grip? Do you say to stick with standard section tyres to maintain handling characteristics?

With regards to IAM and BikeSafe (thanks for that AMCQ46, didn't know about the latter) I've not had a chance to look into them any more than a cursory glance. TBH (not knocking it, was certainly benficial) I did find the IAM car to be rather regimented; do that, this way, always. I tend to believe that a more adaptable approach is best...but, maybe that's just me. Will see how the bike version compares, or the BikeSafe for that matter, when I finally get it booked.

To MK_WF, thanks very much for the idea to extent the footpeg slider pins, I will be trying this Thanks also for the suggestion of using the butterfly loops. Whilst I know what you mean (driven on a few when in Europe) I've never seen these around the roads I know (I'm sure they exist somewhere in Scotland...maybe). There was something similar (though was more cumbersome to use) using on/off slipways to flyovers (overpass) near to where I used to live; however, since moving I've lost access to this. There are plenty roundabouts though and I may end up using the ones in an industrial estate (though will probably be slippy) either late at night or early morning. Will need to find somewhere to practice leaning the other direction though.

To StuartWags, thanks for sharing your experience. My local track is booked up way in advance (which I found out only recently) so my chances of getting in anytime soon are pretty slim. I'm up at the track next weekend for the touring cars so I will ask if I can add my name to the reservation list (if there is one) and hope that someone cancels.

To jchesshyre and alanfjones1411, thanks for the tips. I'm usually on point when it comes to looking well up the road (yes that 'toot' was me blowing my own trumpet) but I've noticed that the distance up the road I'm looking has dropped a bit when riding. Sure, I'm still maximising the view of the vanishing point but when I look past that (albeit, not always possible) to look for trees, hedges, buildings (whatever is there) to indicate where the road is going beyond what's visible I end up moving off line. It's not much, but enough for me to notice. Not yet figured out how to avoid that and until I do I'd rather hold my line than start floating around the road.

Thanks everyone.

[popkat]

Standard tyre sizes work best with the standard wheel sizes, if you go wider the contact patch maybe smaller is it can pull the tyre I. A bit and in effect possible less grip, you could go taller with a 180/60 profile which will make the bike turn in quicker, but std is a safe bet.
Bridgestone S22 is a very good tyre but not sure they last the longest, other good options are the Metzeler M9rr or M7rr all 3 will be awesome in the dry on the road (good on track too) and surprisingly good in the wet, the Michelin power 5 as sports tyre not quite as good as the others.


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