greedy bitch ?

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dazlandy
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greedy bitch ?

Post by dazlandy »

hi guys ...i got a 99 vtr ..with hi level scorpians ...k+n kit ......etc ....goes very well ..but when thrashed returns 25 mpg ...not complaining as there is a price for such fun ...just wondering if this is typical ?....also there was a brand new 4 degree advance widget with it that has never been fitted .....what is the general feeling about these ..?
cheers chaps
daz
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Hairy biker
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by Hairy biker »

I run scorpion cans and a k&n filter if I give it the beans it drinks like Oliver reed,not much better if your gentle really :lol:
I can't comment on the 4 degree widget never had anything to do with them but I thought by adjusting the tps it does the same job :confused I'm sure someone will along soon with a bit more knowledge about it
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lloydie
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by lloydie »

If its the 19l model the advancer won't work .
Rin
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by Rin »

Does just under 46 MPG going v gently, not had a chance to open it up yet and play, but I'm guessing it would halve that.
Didn't buy it for fuel economy. Had that in the Diversion that's on ebay just now.

Rin
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VTRDark
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by VTRDark »

thought by adjusting the tps it does the same job :confused
The TPS, yes...retards and advances but is directly related to the carb throttle position so will send a signal to the electronics which then adjust things. It mainly works in the lower rev range hence the reason that adjusting it to 500 helps with idle and low speed steady state cruise. It pretty much does the same job as the centrifugal weights done in the old distributer systems on vehicles.

The +4 ignition advancer on the other hand is more mechanical and attached to the primary drive gear. Now I'm not entirely sure how it works and I think it correlate with the ignition pulse generator that sits above it. So the positioning of the cogs on the ignition advancer are the key here as they pass over the pick up on the pulse generator.

As for the Advancer helping with fuel efficiency, this is more of a side effect of advancing the timing as you get a cleaner burn in the combustion chamber from igniting the fuel even sooner (more degrees BTDC) as the piston is coming up on the compression stroke. The more efficient burn is also where you get the increase of power from. In a standard engine this can be an advantage, but one has to be careful playing with the timing. If you have a modified engine with hi comp pistons and/or aftermarket cams too much advance will create extra heat from starting the burn sooner and can cause engine pre ignition detonation and possibly burn a hole in the piston/valves In fact if you had a modified engine you would possibly need to retard the timing so the burn starts later.

The same can be done from varying the position of the timing via the cam lobe positions the only difference I think, so don't quote me on this, is that the advancers are moving the spark according to your cam positions and the by moving the cams you moving the opening and closing of the valves according to the spark so the opposite way around. :think: Maybe someone more knowledgeable could confirm this for me :plainsmile The one issue here is that the cam sprockets are non adjustable on the VTR hence the reason that third party manufactures make ignition advancers/retarders. I personally would like to slot my cam sprockets so I will then have more degree (no pun intended) of play. I could then degree my cams to whatever timing I want with a degree wheel rather than being limited to a pre set not adjustable ignition advancer.

On that note before going and installing an ignition advancer I would first check that everything else is working as it should. Check your cam timing is not out by a tooth or two on either the inlet or exhaust cams and the crank lines up with the alignment mark for TDC. If you think your burning too much fuel check the fuel system and carburettor is set up correctly. Maybe think about putting a less restrictive air filter in which requires less fuel. Your not going to gain much from the K&N on a non modified engine.

I don't no if 25mpg is too much or not, it depends on how you ride and what speeds your doing. Anyway this subject has been covered loads have a search on fuel consumption.

Actually here you. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fuel+economy+site% ... 000.org%2F

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Last edited by VTRDark on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MacV2
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by MacV2 »

Great post Carl very informative. :thumbup:

Can I just point out that I've been getting brilliant MPG since 28th April...

But I don't recommend that you follow my fuel saving tips... :thumbdown:
Making up since 2007, sometimes it's true...Honest...
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lloydie
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by lloydie »

We having Chinese again Carl :-!
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VTRDark
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by VTRDark »

Hairy will understand what I'm taking about hence I went into a full technical description. :biggrin

But basically it all comes down to timing and positioning of the spark in relation to the the valve open, closed and overlap in relation to the position of the piston coming up on the compression stroke. :roll:

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Hairy biker
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by Hairy biker »

cybercarl wrote:Hairy will understand what I'm taking about hence I went into a full technical description. :biggrin

But basically it all comes down to timing and positioning of the spark in relation to the the valve open, closed and overlap in relation to the position of the piston coming up on the compression stroke. :roll:

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:thumbup:very well put, in a nut shell-be careful when trying to tweak ignition and valve timing it's easy to do more harm than good
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sirch345
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by sirch345 »

cybercarl wrote: It pretty much does the same job as the centrifugal weights done in the old distributer systems on vehicles.
Who's showing their age now :lol: the trouble is I remember them as well :lol:

All joking aside, nice explanation Carl :thumbup:

Chris.
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darkember
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by darkember »

Adding a hydrogen fuel cell will also require the timing to be advanced.
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VTRDark
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by VTRDark »

Think of the Ignition Pulse generator a bit like Points on the old distributors. It sends a signal to the coils so it knows when to fire the spark. So by changing the ignition pulse generator rotor to a more advanced one (+4 advancer) you altering when the signal is sent therefore changing when the coils fire a spark. :thumbup:

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dazlandy
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by dazlandy »

hi guys , the principal of the +4 widget is very simple , ...it shifts the "base-line" of the sparking point slightly earlier , the automatic advance / retard already programed into the ucu carries on as normal ....guided by the throttle position ...i wouldnt expect to improve economy by fitting the widget ....just wondering why they are made ? ...someone must think the standard set up is a bit "retarded" ....(by 4 degrees) ....ive seen these gadgets made for a few bikes , but ive never used one .....not sure what effect it has on the performance / response ..i was hoping someone had tried one ....i will search thru the posts when i get time as im sure there will be some comments on their effect ...as the bike feels very good at the moment i suppose i should fit it and find out what the outcome is ..i wouldnt consider shifting the valve timing ....thats a bit too dramatic for my tastes...the thought of bringing open valves closer to rising pistons at red-line revs is a bit scarey ....as for the fuel economy ....my faser 1000 returns about 45-50 mpg when ridden "normally " ..when thrashed ..(and this does happen a lot) ..it drops dramatically......its difficult to compare with the vtr ..as ive not driven the vtr "normally" much ...i always seem to ride it hard when i go out to play on it ...cant seem to help myself ...i just wants to go and play ? ....only done about 500 miles on it so far ...and some of them were on a track day ..i think the vtr is going to get me in trouble ..but the sound ..and the torque ........awsome !
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lloydie
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by lloydie »

I have a +4 fitted on mine and it helps to smooth things out and make the throttle a little crisper and also adds a few bhp :-)
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Pete.L
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Re: greedy bitch ?

Post by Pete.L »

lloydie wrote:I have a +4 fitted on mine and it helps to smooth things out and make the throttle a little crisper and also adds a few bhp :-)
Yeah, I fitted one on mine too. Good description, crisper but I would argue a few bhp and say one or two.
Not a mod I would do on it's own but if you are doing a bit of tuning I'd add it to the list to be done. If you want real bang for your bucks (and I've said this many times before) fit a +2 rear sprocket :thumbup: It'll feel like an extra 20 Bhp :D and if you're worried about the mph get a speedo healer or just borrow a sat nav and work out what your new 30-40- 50 etc is

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My new ride is a bit of a Howler and I love to make her Squeal
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