Started my manual CCT change - question?

[alternative_vtr]

Hi I know another cct question - I apologise before I carry on but...........................

I wanted to try and do this myself and thought if I get stuck I will ask if anyone will pop round and help me finish it. A kind person on here has offered to pop round in a couple of weeks but I would like to try and do it.

I have the tank off, airbox off, bottom fairing off, timing mark and crank turning bolt cover off and rear cam cover loose - ready to take off. Tonight I plan to takle taking out my standard auto cct's and put in my pair of Kreiger manual ones and I am scared of doing the front one. I will take off the rear cam cover tonight and rotate anticlockwise until the mark RT apppears then make sure cam lobes are facing upwards/away from valves then slowly reomove cct bolts and withdraw the auto cct and then insert the manual one and tighten to finger tight when pressure is felt and undoo a quarter of a turn (90 degrees) . I get all that and am confident it will be fine (correct me if I have understood the changing of the rear one please) it is exactly as I type it isn't it? I mean whatever position the crank happens to be in I turn anti clockwise until the RT mark appears and the cam lobes face up? If they don't I turn another revolution until RT mark reappears then the cam lobes should face up now and then I am good to go?

The front. Straight away after doing that (assuming the crank has not been touched) if I turn the crank through 450 degrees anti clockwise - so a full revolution and a quarter, the FT mark is visible and that will mean that the front cam lobes will be in the correct position right? Is that fool proof? Or is it not as clean cut. Removing the front cam cover seems a bit of a nightmare (I already have half my new to me Firestorm strewn around my garage and my wife thinks I am a nutter).

I apologise again for my stupidity and adding to the already massive list of CCT posts

[VTRDark]

I will take off the rear cam cover tonight and rotate anticlockwise until the mark RT apppears then make sure cam lobes are facing upwards/away from valves

No, on the rear cylinder the cam lobes will be facing upwards and inwards.

then slowly reomove cct bolts and withdraw the auto cct and then insert the manual one and tighten to finger tight when pressure is felt and undoo a quarter of a turn (90 degrees)

Only when you sure the timing is correct and everything is at TDC, undo the old auto CCT a bit at a time, alternating between the two bolts and remove. When putting the manuals in don't forget a bit of threadlock, silicone or gasket seal along the thread to prevent future oil leakage, and either gasket sealant or new gasket where the ccd mounts to the head. Tighten up finger tight as you say. But as you have the rear cam cover off you can check the freeplay in the camchain. From the centre between the two sprockets, measuring from the centre to centre on the chain links should be 9mm. You will have to remove the cover as you see in the pic above. Put some rags or something in any gaps so you do no occidentally drop any bolts inside the engine.

I mean whatever position the crank happens to be in I turn anti clockwise until the RT mark appears and the cam lobes face up? If they don't I turn another revolution until RT mark reappears then the cam lobes should face up now and then I am good to go?

Not quite, If the rear cylinder is at TDC with the cam lobes facing inwards, to get the front on TDC you will have to turn the flywheel in an anticlockwise direction 450 degrees so so you will see the FT mark pass once and then as is comes round again it should be on TDC (FT) for the front cylinder. If you are unsure or doubting yourself, you will need to remove the front cam cover to check, but this can be verified by the front cam lobes being the opposite to what the rear was. So the cam lobes will be up and facing outwards. And TBH it does making getting the right tension on the front CCT a lot easier.

Just take your time with everything and double check your actions. If your unsure, take some pics and double check back on here to have things verified.

(:-})

[alternative_vtr]

Thanks Carl, excellent

[sirch345]

You're not being stupid mate, the stupid ones are the ones who don't ask first if you're unsure or just want to make sure you have the right procedure.

I assume you're trying to follow this link for setting up the valve timing:-
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8326

The only thing I can see that you don't mention is the cam lobes need to be facing up as you say, but they also need to be facing towards each other [instruction (9) in the above link explains this], as in the position below photo. Also the RE and RI marks on the cam sprockets for the rear cylinder camshafts must be facing in the right direction too and inline with the top of the cylinder head. It's important you pay attention to those RE and RI marks, as those will not be inline with the cylinderhead if the cam chain has slipped a tooth or two as you're changing over the CCT's. Check those marks before removing the standard CCT, as you may find they don't line up exactly in the first place. Taking photo's of things as you go is a good idea, as sometimes they are very helpful when reassembling.

It's up to you which way you go about fitting the manual CCT's, after all it's your bike, but I prefer the method of measuring the up and down movement of the cam chain between the cam sprockets. To do that you will need to remove the cam chain guide (fill cam tunnel with clean rag first so you don't drop the side bolt down into the engine). Up and down movement needs to be between 6mm and 9mm. Good luck with the job.

[sirch345]

If I knew Carl was doing that it would have saved me a job

Chris.

[AMCQ46]

you are still OK in your understanding.

when you have the rear cam cover off you can play at rotating the engine [CCW only[ and you will see the clear difference between each time the RT mark lines up. every 2nd rev [it is a 4 stroke, and there is 2 strokes to a rev!] it repeats and the correct firing TDC the cam lobes point up and towards each other.

from there the 450 deg rotation to the FT position and firing TDC is foolproof, and you dont need to take the cam cover off to check. an important tip is not to use a ratchet to turn the engine over, use a solid t-bar or similar otherwise when the engine goes over compression it cant spin forwards on the ratchet and you lose the position when you are counting 1 1/4 turns.

Final comment as I put in one of the other posts to someone is to use a slightly different method to set the tension. on the rear, remove the guide that sits over the camchain between the 2 cams [put rags in the tunnel so you dont drop the bolt] then fit your new manual with the bolt screwed out and put a basic screwloc compound on the exposed thread [loctite 222 or similar low torque retainer]. Then wind in by hand till it goes solid, mark this position and count the number of turns out from there till you have 7mm slack in the chain measured as the total up and down play on the chain between the 2 sprockets...make a note of this number.
then thighten the locknuts and remove the rags from the tunnel and turn the engine over 2 revs and recheck the slack is still OK. then refit guide [rags back in tunnel ] cam cover on and that is all done.

to do the front you rotate 1 1/4 revs CCW till FT marks shows and then when you fit the Manual CCT you coat the thread in loctite, screw in till solid, and wind back by the magic number, this will be as close to 7mm slack as you will ever need.

do up locknuts. turn over by hand and make sure it all feels OK, then reassemble and start the engine............making sure you put the vacumn pipe on the correct bit of the fuel tap, and none of the fuel hoses are kinked or trapped.

As I said, if you need a talk through on the phone I can PM my number. good luck

[AMCQ46]

all 3 of us jumping in.........surprised I didnt tell him to do stopper mod!

[VTRDark]

Here's a pic of the RI mark on the sprocket that Chris mentions.
Note how it is inline with the top of the cylinder head.

The RE will be the opposite but is not as easy to see as the frame gets in the way.





(:-})

[sirch345]

And AMcQ

Chris.

[VTRDark]

If I knew Carl was doing that it would have saved me a job

Nevermind the thing is we write our post then go to post and see who's beat us to it. I could just cancel the post, but after taking the time to write I can't be bothered, and the more info the OP gets the better.

Removing the front cam cover seems a bit of a nightmare

Seems to, but it's not really. It's just a bit more time for peace of mind.

Remove front fairing so it's out the way., 5min job. Remove airfilter, 5min job. carbs which is loosen choke cable at the frame, the two throttle cables, unclip TPS, loosen the top screws on the carb rubbers at the base of the carbs, loosen and remove the two water hoses at the base of cabs, 1 for each carb, 10 mins in total and lift carbs off as a whole piece including the choke cables still attached. Then remove the plastic shroud/cowl, 2min job. As the fairing is removed undo the oil cooler mounting bolts and pull forward to give you access to the cam cover bolts. And you may have to remove a couple of radiator mounting bolts to help with the cam cover removal. So all in all about an extra 20 mins to undo it all and another 20 to put back together.

IMO taking the extra time to remove the front cover which could add an extra 1h to the job for the peace of mind that it is all done accurately and correctly is not a bad thing.

(:-})

[alternative_vtr]

Ok, as you can see by the evidence they are swapped!

I have not finished yet as I have to put the airbox,tank,seat, belly pan etc back together but the hard bit is done, will finish it Friday night hopefully when I next have time.

Big thanks to you guys for your help and to AMCQ46 for kindly giving me some advice / reassurance over the phone

Cheers, hopefully it will run great, struggled getting my chubby fingers in properly to get the finger tightness and slack on the front one absolutely right but it can't be far off, will see when I get the bike running.

[VTRDark]

Well done. Did you enjoy it? and I bet you know your bike a little bit more now.

You deserve a sit down and a

(:-})

[AMCQ46]

Good work Still no video clip in the email, but I know from the description onthe phone that you got the chain slack correct.

Remember to check the vacumn pipe goes onto the correct place on the fuel tap when you put the tank back on.

[tony.mon]

Sorted.

You'll be stripping and rebuilding engines in no time.

[alternative_vtr]

Got the bike back together and ran the engine, cant here any obvious clicking and I dont think they are too tight so hopefully got the tension correct those pipes under airfilter box are a so and so to connect and stay connected, I smeared a bit of grease on in the end. Not relishing adjusting front tensioner if it isn't correct as it means taking everything back off to get to it, fingers crossed it's about right. I did finger tight and back about a quarter to a half a turn (which was what the rear was to give 8mm of chain travel from extremeties) my tensioners are by Mark Kreiger and he says a full turn is only about a mm of travel of long bolt. Also rather be slightly loose than too tight.