Which Cam Sprockets to use?

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Varastorm
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Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Varastorm »

My MCCT have arrived & I am building up the courage for the VTR cam swap.

As I wait for the weather to improve & my motivation, I have been thinking about a few things, like what would happen if I use the cam sprockets off the Varadero on the VTR cams?

One or both, or just go safe & stick with the Std VTR cams & sprockets :?: I know the majority will say go Std, but whilst its apart :think:

I haven't opened the engine yet to see if the sprockets are different, they might not be. But it's much too cold to go fiddle with the bike.

I have done some reading about the pro's & con's of timing overlap years ago, but wondered if any had played with it on this engine?

Thanks in advance for any advice :thumbup:
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Stephan
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Stephan »

cam spockets are the same for Vara and VTR (part no 14321-MBT-F20), use whatever you wish. For cam timing, you can just grind the slots on current sprockets, no need to buy adjustable (Falicon make them). It will be probably useless with oem cams and duration.
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Varastorm »

Stephan wrote:cam spockets are the same for Vara and VTR (part no 14321-MBT-F20), use whatever you wish. For cam timing, you can just grind the slots on current sprockets, no need to buy adjustable (Falicon make them). It will be probably useless with oem cams and duration.
Thanks Stephan, after all the micro fiches I have been through, looking for alternative flywheels :roll: I never thought to apply it to cam sprockets :redface

With the weather being so cold & miserable, I am up to my eye balls with usd fork swap ideas :thumbup: in front of a nice coal fire :D

Out of interest & its more than likely been covered before, with regard to fitting 4 exhaust cams, has anyone measured the difference in VTR cam profiles? Steeper ramp rates asymmetric profiles etc.?
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by VTRDark »

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Varastorm
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Varastorm »

Hi Carl, not so much the duration.

Just wondering if there are any benefits to be gained by mixing the Std cam profiles we have :?:

Exhaust & inlet ramp rate differences, faster or slower opening etc.

I know that there's only a minimal increase in lift between inlet & exh cams, but has anyone measured the profile differences :?: If any :?:

Just asking all the questions before I go for it :thumbup:

I feel I am close with all the prep & bits for the job, jeeps those alt cover Allen heads are tight & soft. Got them in the end though :D

For the job I have

I have three VTR heads & shims with cams fitted, in case I require 4 exhaust cams :thumbup:

Fresh/low mileage set of VTR cams✓
3 heads for shims✓
Ade's MCCT✓

Looking at engine builders grease, think I will need it :?:

All I need is the weather to pickup to take it for a dyno run for a before & after comparison :thumbup:
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by VTRDark »

I don't think anyone has measured the ramp. IIRC They are pretty much the same accept for the centreline/lobe separation angle. There is more info on here somewhere but I cant find the specs right now and their not in my notes.

Where I think you will be gaining compared to the vara cams is with the lift. Not that I have seen the Vara cam specs, but the VTR cams should give you a little more. Probably not much, but enough to give you a little boost.

There's loads of camshaft related links in the following post you may find of interest.
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... ks#p365372

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Stephan
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Stephan »

Not profile, but measured valve lift of ex cams is 10.15 compared to 10.3 on intake. I did this swap before, it is completely useless.

E: both cams have duration 245 deg at 1mm valve lift, I bet profile is the same. This is mostly defined by rpm, we can say there is profile for cars - more agressive, which is not usable for high rpm motorcycle engines, it can cause valve "pulsation".
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Varastorm »

Still white with frost so been doing lots of reading & learning today, there is so much information regarding cam timing it's shocking :crazy:

The Vtr has longer valve opening times & longer inlet/exhaust valve overlap time compared to the Vara.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/calc-cam.php

Using the above site & figures below I worked out that:-

VTR models
inlet valve opens ................... 20° BTDC inlet duration ........ 245°
inlet valve closes ................... 45° ABDC
exhaust valve opens ............... 50° BBDC exhaust duration ..... 245°
exhaust valve closes ............... 15° ATDC

Varadero models

inlet valve opens ................... 15° BTDC inlet duration ......... 225°
inlet valve closes ................... 30° ABDC
exhaust valve opens ............... 40° BBDC
exhaust valve closes ............... 5° ATDC exhaust duration ...... 225°

The VTR has an overlap of 35 degrees and a Lobe Separation Angle of 105.00 degrees.

The Varadero has an overlap of 20 degrees and a Lobe Separation Angle of 102.50 degrees.



I then started to look at various valve timing for big high revving V twin engines & found this on Ducati's.

http://www.bikeboy.org/duccamspec.html

I know they operate desmodromicly & I don't know if that affects the timing parameters? But it does highlight how conservative Honda have been with both engine timings.

Check out tech author David Vizard's advertised overlap reference chart below, to get an idea of what to expect:

10* - 40* towing
30* - 60* ordinary street
50* - 75* street performance
70* - 90* street/strip
85* - 100* race
95* - 115* Pro race

Seems as if Honda designed the engine for towing things :wtf: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Stephan
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Stephan »

it seems vtwins are different from David Vizard specs. Stock valve overlap is 35, Mori stg1 38, Yosh only 32 (but bigger valve lift), Kent 50, Webcams 50. I will have cams with 42, see one of the last posts here: http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 3&start=45
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by VTRDark »

Seems as if Honda designed the engine for towing things :wtf:
I have towed another bike with my VTR before :lol:

David Vizard.....now where have I heard that name before :think: it rings a bell for some reason.
there is so much information regarding cam timing it's shocking :crazy:
Yep it's like a minefield that's why I have collected what I feel to be the better more relevant links. I have already dug through the minefield. I keep meaning to break it down and do a Cam Timing write up to add to the Cyborg links, but where to start :eek2 Actually I have started with the research.

In your case I would start with slotting the sprockets and degreeing the cams in to the same specs as the VTR's. The only decision you have is which method to use, whether that be the Centreline method or setting the Duration to .50° and going from there.

Interesting to compare the VTR specs against the Vara :thumbup:

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Varastorm
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Varastorm »

Sorry Stephan, the David Vizard towing bit was meant to be a bit of a laugh :lol: :wink:

But if you cross reference various Ducati specs, 998S for instance.

Ducati 998S
inlet valve opens ................... 16° BTDC inlet duration ........ 256°
inlet valve closes ................... 60° ABDC
exhaust valve opens ............... 60° BBDC exhaust duration ..... 258°
exhaust valve closes ............... 18° ATDC

Lobe sep... 112°
Overlap......34°

Lift, inlet---11.71mm
exhaust---10.13mm

It does seem Honda have been very cautious with the timings :thumbup:
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by Varastorm »

I found this read interesting, from one of the links you supplied Carl :thumbup:

I know its about Cars, but isn't the VTR 6 cylinders from being a V8 :?: Cracking job of highlights the effects of lobe separation :)

From: http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=28638

In the early days of high- performance engine building, hot rodders discovered that when they squeezed the intake and the exhaust lobes closer together, the engine responded with more power. That experimentation continues to this day as engine builders struggle with the relationship between overlap and power.

Before we dive deeply into this subject, we should first define the term. Overlap is the number of crankshaft degrees that both the intake and exhaust valves are open as the cylinder transitions through the end of the exhaust stroke and into the intake stroke. The easiest way to understand overlap is by graphing the two lobes (see graph A) and examining the triangle created by the overlap of the intake opening (IO) and the exhaust closing (EC) points. This triangle is measured in degrees based on tappet checking height. This area is also referred to as the lobe separation angle—expressed as the spread in camshaft degrees between the intake centerline and the exhaust centerline.

This area is worth exploring because it is so complex. Let’s start with short-duration cams, which offer less overlap than long-duration cams even when they have the same lobe separation angle. Stated another way, a cam with more advertised duration is guaranteed to have more overlap than a cam with less advertised duration even with the same lobe separation angle. It’s also important to remember that overlap is ground into the camshaft when it is machined and cannot be changed without grinding a new camshaft unless you have a dual overhead cam engine with separate intake and exhaust cams.

Let’s look at a cam with an intake lobe centerline of 106 degrees after top dead center (ATDC) and an exhaust lobe with a 118-degree centerline before top dead center (BTDC). Adding the two values together and dividing by two equals 112 degrees. This is the lobe separation angle. While this number is useful, it doesn’t tell us much about the actual overlap between the intake and exhaust lobes. In order to calculate the actual overlap in crankshaft degrees, we need >> the intake opening (IO) and exhaust closing (EC) points. The SAE spec for advertised duration is 0.006 inch. Keep in mind that all cam companies do not use this spec. Let’s take a hydraulic-roller cam with an advertised duration of 276/282 degrees. The IO is 32 degrees BTDC and the EC is 27 degrees ATDC. Add these two values and we come up with 59 degrees of valve overlap.

Now let’s take a second, longer-duration cam with advertised duration figures of 294/300 degrees with an IO of 41 degrees BTDC and an EC of 36 degrees ATDC. We did the math and came up with a much larger figure of 77 degrees even though the lobe separation angle remains at 110 degrees. See how that works? This also illustrates why long-duration camshafts have such a lopey idle with very low idle vacuum. It’s not the duration itself, but the number of crankshaft degrees of engine rotation where both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time. At idle, there is plenty of time for residual exhaust gas in the combustion chamber to enter the intake manifold when the intake valve opens 41 degrees BTDC. This dilution of the intake manifold with exhaust gas is much like built-in exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and is the culprit responsible for the unstable idle.

An unfortunate result of excessive overlap is reduced torque and soft throttle response at low engine speeds (e.g., below 3,000 rpm). So why build in all this overlap? The answer can be found when you look into the time that is compressed at high engine speed. At idle, there is plenty of time for the exhaust gas to move back up the intake tract and dilute the incoming charge. The intake air charge is also moving at a very slow speed. But buzz the engine to 6,000 rpm and there is precious little time for the exhaust gas to do anything except exit past the exhaust valve. Add the inertia of high-speed air entering the cylinder when the intake valve opens, and overlap is very useful for initiating that column of air into the cylinder. That 41 degrees BTDC intake opening point now works well to fill the cylinder with a big charge of air and fuel that now makes great power at 6,000 rpm. In effect, that early intake opening point gives the intake system a head start to fill the cylinder at high rpm when there is very little time. The result is more power at these higher engine speeds.

The difficulty with overlap is that the results change with different engine speeds. Since race engines tend to operate in relatively narrow rpm bands (e.g., 5,000 to 7,500 rpm), it’s easier to design a cam to work in this rpm band. A street engine is a greater challenge because it must operate through a rpm band of 5,000 rpm or more (1,000 to 6,000 rpm). The key to making overlap work is maximizing the power in the rpm band where you want it. Long overlap periods work best for high-rpm power. For the street, a long overlap period combined with long-duration profiles combine to kill low-speed torque. This makes for a soggy street engine at low engine speeds. Reducing overlap on a long-duration cam will often increase midrange torque at the expense of peak power, but if the average torque improves, that’s probably a change worth making.

The most important point in the four-stroke cycle is the intake closing point. While this is not part of overlap, the timing of intake opening and closing determines total duration. The intake closing point is a big determiner in where the engine makes power. A later intake closing point improves top-end power. Combine that with more overlap and you have a cam designed to make power at high rpm. However, it’s possible to decrease overlap by using a shorter-duration intake lobe and retard the intake centerline (which spreads the lobe separation angle) to improve midrange power.

We should also look at cams with a short duration and a wide lobe separation angle. All late-model Chevrolet engines use extremely wide lobe separation angles to improve idle quality. A late intake centerline combined with an early exhaust centerline and short-duration lobes creates very little overlap, yet the new LS1 and LS6 Gen III engines make great overall power without having to rely on large overlap periods. This is something to think about.

We would be remiss in not mentioning that many enthusiasts purchase a camshaft strictly on the basis of how it sounds. A cam with generous overlap creates that distinctive choppy idle that just sounds cool. There is a possibility that decreased overlap combined with an idealized intake closing point would create more power while producing a more stable (less lumpy) idle quality. This may not produce the idle sound most enthusiasts want to hear, but it is intriguing nonetheless.

There’s a ton more to learn about overlap and lobe separation angles than we can really get into in this short amount of space. It’s a relatively complex subject with many different conflicting requirements. But the more you learn about camshafts and how they operate, the more power you can make from your street engine.
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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by sirch345 »

Varastorm wrote:All I need is the weather to pickup to take it for a dyno run for a before & after comparison :thumbup:
I'm pleased to hear you are going to be doing the before and after dyno runs :thumbup: that's really the only way you are going to know if you've improved things. Good luck with the swap over and degreeing the cam's,

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Re: Which Cam Sprockets to use?

Post by VTRDark »

but isn't the VTR 6 cylinders from being a V8 :?:
6 cylinder VTR, now that would be interesting :lol: I hear where you coming from though and the only similarities are that the cylinders are arranged in a V. Don't forget the angle of this arrangement. For example we have a 90° twin cylinder arrangement compared to say a Harley or Indian with a 45° arrangement and look at the differences. There's also the fact that we run an OHC engine compared to OHV with pushrods.
I found this read interesting
Oh yes indeed, all very interesting stuff. I've read all that before and more so from other sources. We're lucky to have DOHC as it gives us a little more freedom to play and easier to set things up. It's all good to know but don't get caught up too much in cam theory and the principles involved. It's all very complex stuff and will drive you mad. Though it is important to understand the relationship between LSA advance and retard and how it affects things and how one can move the max peak power around the the rev range at the sacrifice of loosing out somewhere else. It's a compromise between performance and reliability and 1 or 2° can make a big difference sometimes. Not only that but you have to take into consideration the length and diameter of the exhaust to benefit fully from the scavenging affect.

Going slightly off topic here but it's related. Some exhaust links.
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... ks#p334553

And another with a link to the affects of Lobe Separation Angle.
http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 30#p347394

Like I said earlier I would start with setting things up as standard first. This gives you a good baseline to go from at a later date then if you wished to do so. Small increments at a time would be my advice.

Those Hot Rodding boys take things very technically seriously and there is some good info on those sites. The principles are mostly the same.

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